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Willie
PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2020 6:05 am 
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Hi there Hank and all,

Thanks for the input:
BB62vet wrote:
I tend to agree with you about your after stack arrangement. I would leave it "as is" - and build the model as of that particular time in her career.

I assume you mean to build her as she was when she was transferred to the Spanish Navy, i.e., in her early 1960´s configuration.

I have been looking into the subject a bit more carefully yesterday and today, and I have found out to my utter surprise, that --quite inadvertently-- I have been mainly using pics and accordingly taking decisions (air conditioning conduits, Mk.14 and Mk.32 torpedo tubes, BT, among other elements) that turn my Jorge Juan into her late 1960´s to early-mid 1970´s configuration. This will include, of course, the extra ECM dome and platform, but also my "new" NT66046 antennas. This solves the problem, and I think it would have been worse.

So this is definitely the Jorge Juan I am building, late 60´s-mid/late 70´s, when I saw the light for the first time, and when this ship came into my life:
Attachment:
(662) Jorge Juan.jpg
(662) Jorge Juan.jpg [ 108.5 KiB | Viewed 2222 times ]

Notice the heavy oil canning fore and aft, very noticeable even in the distance.

Best regards from this side,

Willie.

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Willie
PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2020 3:21 pm 
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Hi all again.

After the discoveries of yesterday and the decision reg. the new direction of the construction, I have started the extra ECM platform and dome. I would have preferred a cleaner stack, but alas, this is not going to be.
I have only two pictures that show some perspective:
Attachment:
(663).JPG
(663).JPG [ 61.73 KiB | Viewed 2191 times ]

Attachment:
(664).jpg
(664).jpg [ 157.77 KiB | Viewed 2191 times ]

Though not of great quality, these pictures are clear enough to show that this platform was of more or less triangular shape, solid (not made of grid) and had some kind of beams to support the plate.

So this is what I have been able to produce. The exact shape, number of beams and how it has to be fixed on the horizontal bars is of course purely a guess. :roll_eyes:. The dome is a copy of the other one, also made with a scrap of Plastruct rod.
Attachment:
(665).jpg
(665).jpg [ 266.51 KiB | Viewed 2191 times ]

Attachment:
(666).jpg
(666).jpg [ 253.01 KiB | Viewed 2191 times ]

Attachment:
(667).jpg
(667).jpg [ 222.4 KiB | Viewed 2191 times ]

One of the other pictures that I have shows that at some moment there was some kind of a handrail on top of it:
Attachment:
(668).jpg
(668).jpg [ 46.97 KiB | Viewed 2191 times ]

The picture is not very clear either, but the fact is confirmed by another shot on board Alcalá Galiano:
Attachment:
(669).jpg
(669).jpg [ 75.2 KiB | Viewed 2191 times ]

I will have to find out when these handrails were fixed, in case I have to add them as well.

I hope you like it and very best regards once more,

Willie.

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Amen dico tibi, hodie mecum eris in paradiso (Lk 23,43).


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Willie
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2020 6:02 pm 
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Hi all again.

Before proceeding with the upper platforms I want to solve the problem of the wiring. I have more or less clear how to make it with stretched sprue and steel/copper wire, but I am bogged down with the brackets embracing them.
Would you have any idea on how to make them to look realistic ?
Attachment:
(670).JPG
(670).JPG [ 270.69 KiB | Viewed 2131 times ]

TIA, and best regards from this side,

Willie.

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BB62vet
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:33 am 
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Willie,

Regarding your question about how to show the cable tie-downs on your above photo - First, look and see if you have any photos of JORGE JUAN's after stack base in order to verify that the cabling is same/similar to that shown in your photo (USS SULLIVANS). As I've stated before, these ships were NOT all constructed the same and the wiring to the various electronics located on the stacks was certainly no exception. I will be trying to verify similar details on STODDARD when I get to the construction of the stacks and their electronic suites.

If it turns out that the cables ARE similar or the same (i.e., running up the after side of the stack), they are tied down using a vertical Cable Tray with a square metal tube underneath the cables (in this case nearest to the face of the stack) and a curved metal band over the cables to secure them. It appears in the photo of THE SULLIVANS that there are at least seven separate cables running up the stack. I would try to find some old multi strand telephone wire (the kind that has at least 4 leads [R,G,Y,B] within the outer sheathing) to use as these cables. The size might work out very well - you're more concerned with the plastic sheath than the wire inside. For the cable tray, possibly use some very small Evergreen square strips - today's cable trays are usually made out of "U" channel, but I don't see that being the case back in the 1940s. I can't offer any strip sizes as I don't know what you're able to purchase, but I think that 1/64" square stock (0.40mm) might work out and not look too large.

I will look thru my photo gallery of FLETCHER DD's and if I find any further info will post to you.

Hope this helps,

Hank

Edit - 11 A.M. - In regards to STODDARD - all her after stack cabling was run up the fwd. port side of the stack. The cable tray was similar, so my cables will be run accordingly.

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HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48


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Fliger747
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2020 2:01 am 
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In centuries past I have had good luck forming such channels from paper. I will testify that such paper items, painted will last perfectly at least 60 years. Probably much longer... 3D printing could also produce such an item.

Sometimes experimentation with prototypes may help find the best path.

Keep up the good work! Cheers: Tom


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Willie
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2020 4:27 pm 
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Hi there Hank, Flieger and all,

Thanks very much for your messages and your help.
BB62vet wrote:
(...) Look and see if you have any photos of JORGE JUAN's after stack base in order to verify that the cabling is same/similar to that shown in your photo (USS SULLIVANS)

No, no pictures of this area, and no hope of ever having one, I am afraid.
BB62vet wrote:
If it turns out that the cables ARE similar or the same (i.e., running up the after side of the stack)(...)

They are. I have been looking into this subject, and I have found out that the position of the scales up both stacks, and tray and cables on aft stack, wether full of cables while she carried the ECM domes or empty when they were omitted, did not change all along Jorge Juan´s operative life. The aft stack scale seems to have always been between both cable trunks:
Attachment:
(671).JPG
(671).JPG [ 65.52 KiB | Viewed 2036 times ]

Attachment:
(672).JPG
(672).JPG [ 68.51 KiB | Viewed 2036 times ]

Attachment:
(673).jpg
(673).jpg [ 54.11 KiB | Viewed 2036 times ]

BB62vet wrote:
I would try to find some old multi strand telephone wire (the kind that has at least 4 leads [R,G,Y,B] within the outer sheathing) to use as these cables. The size might work out very well

It is exactly the kind of wiring that I am using. When some years ago the telephone companies replaced the copper wire by optic fiber in my street I took some pieces of wire, just in case I could need them in the future, as it is now the case.
BB62vet wrote:
(...) You're more concerned with the plastic sheath than the wire inside. For the cable tray, possibly use some very small Evergreen square strips (...) I can't offer any strip sizes as I don't know what you're able to purchase, but I think that 1/64" square stock (0.40mm) might work out and not look too large.

Yes I am. Using Evergreen is no problem, as I have virtually the whole Evergreen inventory at home, and I can always use stretched sprue for anything that can be necessary reg. rod sections and alike. The problem is the pieces embracing the wires all along the structure, really small things, as I intend the wires to be inserted into them with no glue.
Fliger747 wrote:
In centuries past I have had good luck forming such channels from paper. I will testify that such paper items, painted will last perfectly at least 60 years. Probably much longer... 3D printing could also produce such an item.

Tom, this is an excellent idea that will definitely be tested. Actually, after your tip I am considering using the sides of a yogurt container, that are as thing as paper, but being plastic they will work wonderfully with the Tamiya glue that I am using. I will make a try at the weekend.

Folks, thanks a lot for your interest and precious help, and very best regards from this side,

Willie.

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Fliger747
PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2020 11:10 pm 
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For building with paper I used yellow wood glue, even in the 1:120 scale inclined ladders that I built. This had the advantage that it didn't stick to the plexiglas jig I was using. Paper also, becomes a quite different material when it absorbs CA. Smooth and even sandable to some degree.

Good luck with your very excellent project! Tom


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Willie
PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2020 5:34 pm 
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Hi there again, folks,

Tom, regarding your very good tip:
Fliger747 wrote:
(...) Paper also, becomes a quite different material when it absorbs CA. Smooth and even sandable to some degree.

I think it will not be necessary. I was thinking all the time about making almost oval sections in paper, then in thin plastic, then, following your advice, in paper soaked in CA, and lately using stretched sprue circles. Basically this, turning the circles into ovals, or using only sections of them, and then sanded:
Attachment:
(673b).jpg
(673b).jpg [ 99.96 KiB | Viewed 1966 times ]

But searching further in my files, I have found a picture --a section of a picture, better said-- of USS McGowan herself that I had not noticed before, and that shows clearly not only the profile of the tray, but also that the brackets were not oval, but flat. This one:
Attachment:
(674) McGowan.JPG
(674) McGowan.JPG [ 68.48 KiB | Viewed 1966 times ]

It is clear now that this arrangement of the wiring laying flat is more intelligent than the one on board USS The Sullivans that I was using as a reference, which was basically a mass of cables tied together with my headache oval brackets.

This arrangement is confirmed on board some other units. Here USS Ross. Notice the neatly positioned cables:
Attachment:
(675) Ross.jpg
(675) Ross.jpg [ 285.27 KiB | Viewed 1966 times ]

This other pic of USS Uhlmann is gold worth:
Attachment:
(676) Uhlmann .jpg
(676) Uhlmann .jpg [ 194.77 KiB | Viewed 1966 times ]

Notice the identical arrangements of cables, the profile of the tray and the way the ladder is attached to the stack. As this seems to be exactly the way in which the tray, cables and ladder onboard USS McGowan were built, this is the model that I am going to follow, and as everything will be straight sections of styrene and stretched sprue, this will be (hopefully) the end of my worries in this section of the ship. Gee. As long as I have to deal only with straight styrene sections, I am confident that I would be able to build the Eiffel Tower.

Hank, I think this info can be very useful for you too, and as you will recognize the pics, this is the confirmation of the well-known fact that good deeds revert to the doer.

Nice going and best regards from this side of the oceans,

Willie.

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Fliger747
PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2020 7:23 pm 
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Good research! You used some heat on the coiled sprue to get it to retain it's shape? I made a lot of circles used as parts of tackle on my project with fine brass wire coiled around a small mandrill (small drill bit) then cut into rings and join with a dab of solder. The sprue circles seem a good alternative!

Cheers: Tom


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BB62vet
PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2020 10:25 pm 
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Willie,

What you have discovered re. the way cable trays are put together is correct - the top of the tray is a flat metal piece (now "u" channel) that is bolted on both ends to the tray with the cables within. I appreciate the UHLMANN photo - yes, it shows the very neatly packed tray and I will also refer to this when I begin to work on my stacks.

Thanks again,

Hank

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HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48


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marijn van gils
PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:28 am 
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Fliger747 wrote:
I made a lot of circles used as parts of tackle on my project with fine brass wire coiled around a small mandrill (small drill bit) then cut into rings and join with a dab of solder. The sprue circles seem a good alternative!

+1!
Sprue circles would be much easier to glue in many cases. Great idea! I'll be remembering this... ;)


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Willie
PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:26 pm 
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Hi there Marijn and all,

marijn van gils wrote:
Sprue circles would be much easier to glue in many cases. Great idea! I'll be remembering this... ;)


Stretched sprue will never be praised enough. Actually, the limit is how much you can stretch it without it melting down (and breaking) when applying heat again. Other than this, the calibers that you can obtain can be surprising:
Attachment:
(677).jpg
(677).jpg [ 68.83 KiB | Viewed 1911 times ]

The only relevant handicap to keep in mind is that stretched sprue circles will "open" if you apply liquid poly to it, otherwise the only way to handle these small calibers. To avoid this, you have to cut all the sections in the same point, and in a long cut, as if you were cutting salami slices; then, reverse the ends, pushing them against each other, and the "spring effect" pressure will keep the circle perfectly tight and closed.
After this, and if the slice has been well cut, the circle should already be perfect, and the seam should have virtually disappeared. Then apply a small drop of poly on the seam only, and let it dry. Sand slightly and the seam will disappear completely:
Attachment:
(678).jpg
(678).jpg [ 132.71 KiB | Viewed 1911 times ]

I have used this method for years, and the effect can be very convincing even at very small scales:
Attachment:
(679).jpg
(679).jpg [ 60.14 KiB | Viewed 1911 times ]

Attachment:
(680).jpg
(680).jpg [ 53.14 KiB | Viewed 1911 times ]

I hope it can be of some help. I find it very easy to do, and with lots of applications in modelling.

Best regards from this side of the North Atlantic,

Willie.

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Fliger747
PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2020 6:09 pm 
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Thank you for this good treatise on use of this technique!

Tom


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Rick E Davis
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:36 am 
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An image that may be of use to Willie and those building a post-WWII FLETCHER with a Tripod Foremast.

The attached image shows the attachment point for one of the legs of the tripod mast. Something that doesn't show up well in most photos because of distance and shipboard clutter.

Image


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Willie
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2020 4:41 pm 
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Howdy Mr. Davis and all.

Sorry I could not come to you earlier, but 1/1 scale life has kept me busy. If you have heard of teachers with huge incomes, nil work to do and lots of holidays to enjoy, well, they are talking of my school. :cool_1:

Thanks a lot for the excellent, salty picture, a flashback to a world that no longer exists. Mr. Davis, you are right, this detail is very small, and hence rare to be found in generic pictures, so your idea of addressing this subject is mostly welcome.

I could take some pics of this mast base detail when I was on board USS The Sullivans in Buffalo. As further info, I attach the pics that I have:
Attachment:
(683).JPG
(683).JPG [ 221.32 KiB | Viewed 1721 times ]

Attachment:
(684).JPG
(684).JPG [ 216.28 KiB | Viewed 1721 times ]

Attachment:
(685).JPG
(685).JPG [ 251.85 KiB | Viewed 1721 times ]

And something else that I had never ever seen before that eventful day: the base of the main mast at main deck level, just ahead of stack number one. I attach as well the pics that I have :
Attachment:
(686).JPG
(686).JPG [ 203.84 KiB | Viewed 1721 times ]

Attachment:
(687).JPG
(687).JPG [ 189.07 KiB | Viewed 1721 times ]

Attachment:
(688).JPG
(688).JPG [ 204.11 KiB | Viewed 1721 times ]

Not that it will be very visible, but actually this is a detail I forgot completely about when I closed the structures, so I will have to take care of it pretty soon.

In the meanwhile, I hope these pics are also of your interest.

Best and warmest regards from this side,

Willie.

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Fliger747
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2020 5:19 pm 
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Interesting detail! Of course the mast probably has to go somewhere, though the aft legs of of the tripod appear to end at the O1 level? It's always good to have as many primary sources as possible in any historical chronicle (This includes build a ship model). R.E.D. is vey good in this manner, most of us have to limp along with secondary or tertiary drawings and photographs. I was for my Missouri able to make several trips aboard and photograph many details which were useful, bearing in mind that some changes were made upon deactivation. Sullivans is a useful expedition for many details, though a large class like Fletcher had (1) differences in building between individuals (2) even more changes, especially for longer lived examples.

Such details as mast grounding straps are pretty small in 1:144, but doable with tiny slices of paper. Always a challenge: "Can I do this"?

Great project! Tom


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Willie
PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:22 pm 
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Hi all again.

The next step will be to (at least) start the four 5"/38 artillery mounts, a well known element that needs no further introduction. These were the mounts on board Jorge Juan:
Attachment:
(689).jpg
(689).jpg [ 133.95 KiB | Viewed 1662 times ]

Attachment:
(690).jpg
(690).jpg [ 220.51 KiB | Viewed 1662 times ]

It can be observed that only mounts nr.1 and 4 had the mount captain's blast hood; unlike many other refitted Fletchers, mount nr.3 had no hood against the blast of the 3"/50 pointing aft just above it. By pure chance this is great, as my kits offers only two hooded mounts.

The first thing was to remove virtually all the details on the front shields, as these details were inaccurate, or simply false.
Attachment:
(691).jpg
(691).jpg [ 270.31 KiB | Viewed 1662 times ]

And the same thing with the awful ladders the mounts display on their sides:
Attachment:
(692).jpg
(692).jpg [ 176.9 KiB | Viewed 1662 times ]

When at resting position, the guns used to be elevated some 10º/15º, so the first thing was to make sure all of them were set at the same high, something very easy to do, as the pieces are made in such a way that they fit very tightly on the trunions, allowing an excellent precision.
Attachment:
(693).jpg
(693).jpg [ 170.14 KiB | Viewed 1662 times ]

The fitting of the rest of the pieces is not that good, to put it mildly, and it took some effort to make them come together with no seams, or filling in the seams that could no be avoided, some of them quite apparent. Some of the details are quite interesting, for example the small riveted plates on the stb. side, or the ventilation grids, but the rear shields fit poorly, and I lost the riveted lines that go along them. Too bad, because I don´t know if I will be able to reproduce them again. But I was able to come out of the process with no seam at all, keeping straight, sharp lines and profiles. Better no seams at the cost of the rivets, rather than rivets with seams, something that the paint will never mend.
Attachment:
(694).jpg
(694).jpg [ 169.81 KiB | Viewed 1662 times ]

Attachment:
(695).jpg
(695).jpg [ 161.09 KiB | Viewed 1662 times ]

Attachment:
(696).jpg
(696).jpg [ 218.4 KiB | Viewed 1662 times ]

The seams besides the trunions are not important as they will be covered by the blast bags, that will be the next step, if I figure how to make them.

So the thing is at the moment like this, already looking like true 5"/38´s, and the ship coming out slowly as a true Fletcher.
Attachment:
(697).JPG
(697).JPG [ 26.78 KiB | Viewed 1662 times ]

I hope you like it, and very best regards from this side,

Willie.

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Amen dico tibi, hodie mecum eris in paradiso (Lk 23,43).


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BB62vet
PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:51 pm 
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Willie,

I forgot to mention "Thanks" for the photos you posted above of the amidships passageway @ Frame 74 (Base of Main Mast). Those are extremely helpful indeed.

Your mounts are coming along nicely. The kit versions are just about worthless, as are most FLETCHER class DD kit gun parts. For some reason the kit mfgrs. simply can't read the blueprints when creating these parts.

Hank

_________________
HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48


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Fliger747
PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2020 12:49 pm 
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Willie:

Ah, blast bags... A while back I made blast bags by making a form and then painting latex over it, peeling it off and viola a blast bag. However these seem to deteriorate over the years. On Alaska I replaced them eventually with ones sculpted in place with modeling clay.

Good luck with what ever you come up with! great project! Tom


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Willie
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:24 pm 
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Hi there Hank, Tom and all,
BB62vet wrote:
I forgot to mention "Thanks" for the photos you posted above of the amidships passageway @ Frame 74 (Base of Main Mast). Those are extremely helpful indeed.

Sir, my pleasure, sir. If forums are not for sharing information, what are they here for ?
BB62vet wrote:
Your mounts are coming along nicely. The kit versions are just about worthless, as are most FLETCHER class DD kit gun parts. For some reason the kit mfgrs. simply can't read the blueprints when creating these parts.

I suppose the injection mass-producing process has got some limitations, but anyhow, as long as the kit elements have the correct measures, I will gladly accept them, rather than spending lots of bucks in detailing that can be more or less done at home.
Fliger747 wrote:
Ah, blast bags... A while back I made blast bags by making a form and then painting latex over it, peeling it off and viola a blast bag. (...) On Alaska I replaced them eventually with ones sculpted in place with modeling clay.

Tom, I have thinking about the blast bags over and over again. At last I think I can make them out of a frame made with stretched sprue covered with white glue or thin paper soaked in white glue. I will be trying in the next days.

And something else.

While searching for info on the blast bags, I have come across an element that puzzles me, an strange device before the mount captain´s position. The ring sight seems to indicate that it is some kind of aiming device, but the pics are not too clear, and I have found no reference picture or graphic. Would somebody have a clear reference of this thing ?
Attachment:
(698).JPG
(698).JPG [ 39.19 KiB | Viewed 1615 times ]

Attachment:
(699).jpg
(699).jpg [ 192.92 KiB | Viewed 1615 times ]

Attachment:
(700).jpg
(700).jpg [ 117.37 KiB | Viewed 1615 times ]

Attachment:
(701).jpg
(701).jpg [ 223.32 KiB | Viewed 1615 times ]

If you have nothing, no problem at all. With the scarce pics that I already have I think I could more or less produce something.

TIA in any case, and very best regards from this side,

Willie.

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