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PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2021 3:01 pm 
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Interesting info, especially about the searchlight platform vibrations. Sometimes just beefing up an bracing only leads to material fatigue failures. Though hydrodynamics and aerodynamics differ as one medium is incompressible and the other not, affecting the transmission of pressure waves, many similarities exist. I spent a lot more years driving propulsion systems in airplanes than ships. Aircraft turbine engines are inherently more smooth in operation than any piston pounder. However turboprops produce many times the vibration of turbofans, largely as the blade tips, without the cowl of the turbofan, boil vortices off the blade tips which interact with the aircraft structure, this is particularly noticeable with flaps extended. A ships propeller also creates such disturbance in the water and every time a blade has passed the hull it will send a pressure pulse. A propeller with more blades will at the same shaft RPM provide a greater number of smaller pulses, that potential advantage offset by greater rotating weight and balancing problems. There are numerous descriptions of ships having particular operating speed ranges that would result in bad harmonics. WWII aircraft with large piston engines would also have RPM zones to avoid due to engine/prop combinations. Also interesting were the dynamics between props on four shafted vessels, which were more likely to have interference between the prop washes. The Iowa's had a combination of four and five blade props to help reduce this effect. I'd have to get up and dig but I recall a similar solution for the North Carolina and SODAK's

Undoubtedly there are a number of Phd theses in Marine engineering on the subject.

Cheers: Tom


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2021 2:16 pm 
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Hi all modelers again.

The next element was closed chocks, something again that gives much life to a deck.
This is the type all Fletchers were provided with:
Attachment:
(773).JPG
(773).JPG [ 164.68 KiB | Viewed 1016 times ]

The profile is very easy to make, but it is necessary to notice that the inner profile is round, so that the lines do not break after rubbing against the borders.

There were 22 of these on board every Fletcher, so the task was somehow monotonous, but anyhow easy. To accelerate the process I made all of them on a single strip, drilling the holes in a row, refining the inside profile and finally rounding the outer upper angle with a cut and sandpaper; then I cut the segment away, and did the other corner. Gee, my fingers are big, and these things are small...
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I made some more than the necessary number, to choose then the best ones.
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With only a dry fit, the effect is quite convincing:
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Very slowly, but this hull starts looking like a Fletcher hull.

Nice going and warm summer regards from this side,

Willie.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2021 3:13 pm 
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Willie!

Pleased to see some more progress on your ship. Your chocks are very convincing. For my Missouri and Alaska I made masters and cast the rest. Today I would print them! But it is a tour de force of traditional building to make them all by hand and yours are quite authentic. Perhaps the most dedicated hand fashioner on the forum is Song, who would make his anchor chains by hand in wood! I suppose we spend more time about fretting about the job than it actually takes.

Best regards! Tom


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2021 7:08 pm 
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Willie,

Yes, those chocks certainly are much more realistic than the molded kit offerings. I too chose to remove them and do mine myself (3D printing in my case). Your model is looking very nice at this point.

Hank

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Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:45 am 
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Hi there Tom, Hank and all,

Thanks once more for your kind remarks.

As I am still thinking of solutions for the bloody blast bags, I have had a try with the cable tray in the aft stack.
As it was discussed before in the thread this is what USS McGowan and Jorge Juan had, i.e., flat brackets:
Attachment:
(779) McGowan.JPG
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An arrangement that can be confirmed by a better picture of USS Uhlmann:
Attachment:
(780).jpg
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I have used for this Evergreen 2 mm. channel and 0.25x0.5 mm. strips. The size is too big, but I thought that smaller sizes would be too fragile considering the following steps in the construction.

The tray was very easy to build, and was left to dry before attaching it to the stack, only to find the next morning that for some reason the combination of liquid poly and plastic had made it shrink and therefore comb badly.
Attachment:
(781).jpg
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I thought at first it could be used anyway, but in a second thought, and as this is so easy to build, I didn´t want to run the risk of making a poly mess in the case the channel offered some resistance, and started the process again, this time in two steps. First step:
Attachment:
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And second:
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(783).jpg
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Using a channel I think I get for free the same effect that the original tray shows, plus a further inside channel that can be useful for additional wiring, in case it was necessary.
Attachment:
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As I say, the brackets are a bit over scaled, but this is something I have to sacrifice, trading caliber for resistance.

To be continued, and very best regards in the meanwhile,

Willie.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:08 am 
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Willie,

Well, I'm not exactly sure how I intend to construct the similar cable tray for STODDARD, but I think you've done a good job on your model of JORGE JUAN.

Yes, it may be a bit oversized - have you already attached the tray to the stack, or is it just laying in place? If not, I would suggest making a 2nd cable tray slightly thinner in overall thickness and perhaps slightly narrower. Perhaps 1-1.5mm less in both directions. I would also "attempt" to count the actual cables running up the tray if you have any close up photos to give you a fairly accurate number. I would then determine a minimum length of these cable (including extra length for waste) and arrange those in the tray PRIOR to mounting and adhering the tray to the side of the stack. This way the cables and their holders are all in place when you mount the part to the stack. You can spread the upper ends of the cables as needed to the various RADAR units, etc. and terminate them; similarly, the bottom of the cables can be terminated at the deck. I don't know what you plan to use for "cables" - I am going to see if some old wall telephone wiring (6 wires/cable) will work - outer sheathing removed, exposing the individual 6 covered stranded wires. If these are too wide, I may use real thin styrene rods (0.020 dia. or less - 0.5mm) if it's available.

Hope this helps,

Hank

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HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 6:20 am 
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Hi there Hank and all,

Hank, thanks for your suggestion.


BB62vet wrote:
Yes, it may be a bit oversized - have you already attached the tray to the stack, or is it just laying in place? If not, I would suggest making a 2nd cable tray slightly thinner in overall thickness and perhaps slightly narrower. Perhaps 1-1.5mm less in both directions.


Actually it is only the protruding vertical parts that are somehow oversized, but I would say that the tray itself is OK. Maybe it is the perspective of the picture or the vertical parts (that obviously will be cut to less than a half of what they are now) that make it to look like that. I sanded the sides of the tray before attaching it to the stack, and it is now 1.9 mm. wide, slightly thinner than a standard size match:
Attachment:
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As for the cables, I will place them individually, and that´s why I have left the brackets open for now. It is going to be more complicated than anticipated, but I think it can be done.

Nice going in NC, and best regards from this side,

Willie.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:43 pm 
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Willi:

I remember as a young man being able to work with small close subjects without glasses or magnifying hood. Certainly out of the question now! That you have aligned these pieces of the track with such precision as to alignment and spacing speaks for a high degree of skill! The platform on the aft of the stack came out quite convincing, especially the curved rails.

Best regards! Tom


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:47 am 
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Howdy Tom and all,

Well, regarding your remark:

Fliger747 wrote:
I remember as a young man being able to work with small close subjects without glasses or magnifying hood. Certainly out of the question now!

Same thing here, my friend. And I can even remember the first models I used to build, when (believe it or not) advanced modelling meant tweezers.

The next step was the wiring. I tried optical fiber at first, but it will never bend at sharp angles, but simply break, so i had to turn to stretched sprue.

Again, at first I tried to make complete wiring, from deck to every antenna, as things actually were, but the bar and support mess that this stack displays turned into a complete failure any attempt I made. Some of these pieces are really tiny, the stretched sprue has its limits, and after repeated attempts of glueing and ripping, some of them literally disolved in the liquid poly. To crown my miseries, I realized then that I had not set the upper platform in place yet, what made me delete the complete work, because it was now completely useless. I gave up the action for the day, not only having done nothing positive, but having to mend some of the damage caused to the base elements.
Attachment:
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S**t happens, and all this s**t at 1/144. I have to say that I kept thinking with every failure about how our common friend Marijn van Gils is going to make the hundreds of ropes in his diorama.

After this, I considered making the wiring in sections, starting with the most obvious elements, and going up to the rest afterwards. I made the tray accordingly, setting six wires, so that they are somehow visible when they are painted, and closing the box with stretched sprue. This :
Attachment:
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Then I fixed the upper platform:
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And then, I refined the tray, deleting the redundant stuff:
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At the same time I was adding the first elements of the wiring, merely schematic.
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If I could use CA I would be able to use some other stuff other than stretched sprue, but in the in the middle of the bar mess I have to deal with, CA is for me out of the question. Not only stretched sprue has got its limits. I have got mine as well.

Macro pictures are of course merciless, what else; at two feet distance, I think it looks aceptable.

Nice going and best regards from across the seas,

Willie.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:13 pm 
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Willie,

I think your tray looks fine - you've captured the essence of the cables, etc. and that's more than most modelers would even attempt. I've got a long way to go on my version, but I'll be posting my latest 3D designed part for this over on my build.

Your stack & associated RADARs are looking extremely professional - and I applaud your efforts!!! :thumbs_up_1:

Hank

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HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:25 pm 
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Willi:

Bravo for the effort, such is the way we tend to overcome problems and develop successful technique. I am sure hank is watching this with interest. I found 1;192 too small to do a decent job with this. I did add some cable wires with very fine telephone wire. A source of even finer wire is from twisted cable such as might be found in appliance cords etc. Then yes, attaching with adhesive... Less is more if you can manage it!

Regards: Tom


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:37 pm 
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Hi Tom and all again,

I have been thinking about this remarks from you:

Fliger747 wrote:
For my Missouri and Alaska I made masters and cast the rest. Today I would print them! But it is a tour de force of traditional building to make them all by hand and yours are quite authentic. Perhaps the most dedicated hand fashioner on the forum is Song, who would make his anchor chains by hand in wood! I suppose we spend more time about fretting about the job than it actually takes.

Actually, I have always thought that the old traditional way of modelling IS modelling; what we do nowadays is a different category.

And Tom, what you say of our common friend Song...

Fliger747 wrote:
Perhaps the most dedicated hand fashioner on the forum is Song, who would make his anchor chains by hand in wood!

...Is exactly my own feeling. I remember my grandfather whenever I take my X-acto blade. He did MODELLING, with capitals, and his modelling started virtually choosing a cedar or a fir log, and making the model afterwards with very basic tools, little else than scraps of wood and his pocket knife. I have seen only one of his hulls (that for some reason he had discarded for firewood) that he presented me with when I was say 9-10, and have distinct memories of how fine the lines of the bows were. I finished this hull as my first model ever; don´t ask me what I did, and better cry bitter tears with me over the sad loss, that would be nowadays the center of my modelling vitrine.
He devoted his last modelling years to build the traditional fishing boats of my village La Guardia, the so called "gamelas", in ca.1/20 scale, selling them to add something else to his retirement pension. The construction of these ships was very simple, and therefore very easy to model.

This is Grandpa in say 1966, building one of these gamelas:
Attachment:
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He died completely blind in 1979, so this specimen, that he built in 1969, was one of the last, if not the very last, that he ever built.
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It was a present to a granddaughter, that was in due time, some months ago, presented back to my mother, to whom it belongs at the moment. It was displayed in the open air in a sitting room for over 50 years, so I made a careful cleaning and restoration, and had a glass case made for it.
There are some little mistakes in the paint and other clues that make me think that Grandpa had already lost much of his eyesight by this date.

I can only imagine what my grandfather would have been able to produce had he had all the technological advances and modern stuff that we enjoy today.

But IMHO true modelling will always be the same, from scratch, what means making your own stuff. It is a common place all around the world to build a model OOB, and improve it with lots of PE´s and aftermarket elements, what actually would be more OOB if they came already together in the same box, as it is already a common place too. This is obviously acceptable, because this is a hobby, and it is supposed to produce pleasure, and not everybody would be willing to spend years in a row building the same ship, and to see a ship, your ship model, finished is one of the highest pleasures that I myself know.

But honestly, scratch building is way easier than many modelers think. I have made it for years, with at least interesting results.

This is the old 1/125 Revell U-boot VII-B, that I built in 1991, with some scratch built elements, the most obvious of them, the Flak 20 mm.:
Attachment:
ZZZ (01).jpg
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This Flak was built using these very basic elements:
Attachment:
ZZZ (2).jpg
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Which were exactly these ones, minus the yogurt container for the shield:
Attachment:
ZZZ (3).jpg
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And we will always have the stretched sprue, that will never be enough praised nor appreciated.
The mack of the French frigate Tourville, made with only stretched sprue:
Attachment:
ZZZ (4).jpg
ZZZ (4).jpg [ 54.97 KiB | Viewed 792 times ]

And a very, very basic 1/400 Heller Elbing class torpedo boat, with only streched sprue and yogurt container again, way before I discovered Evergreen:
Attachment:
ZZZ (5).jpg
ZZZ (5).jpg [ 100.74 KiB | Viewed 792 times ]

It can take longer than buying lots of built or ready-to-build stuff, but it is very easy to do, and goes for nothing at all in price. the level of satisfaction is also different, I could say, and here is the essence of modelling.

If you guys, Tom, Hank and many others, are printing your own stuff after learning the process, designing your own elements and setting them together to build your own ship, this is for me 100% modelling from scratch, and a path that my grandpa would be probably willing to follow as well. After all, he also bought his logs, because he was first a sailor, and then a carpenter and shipbuilder, not a lumberjack cutting his own trees after being a gardener and growing them in his property.

Heresy, heresy, I know... And I will lapidate myself before anyone cast the first stone saying that no, as I do not build my own hulls, I do not consider myself a true modeller.

Believe me, when I find the way to build my own hulls, I will devote the rest of my existence to build my own ship, SNS Cataluña, the Knox-class frigate I served in in 1984-85, one of the best periods in my life. 1/144, with painful detail.

Happy modeling and nice going from across the seas,

Willie.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:40 pm 
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Hi there David,

DavidP wrote:
Willie, how thick is the stretched sprue you are using as cables as could of used actual wire strands as cables a bit bigger in diameter then the hair on your arm?


Honestly I don´t know, but as I was able to place 6 of these wires in a 1.9 mm. wide space, I would say they are 0.3 mm. thick each.

Very best regards from this side,

Willie.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2021 5:18 pm 
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Great job Willie

wonderful as always.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2021 8:49 pm 
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Willi:

Building the big features, hull, deck and basic superstructure seems quite daunting, and it is. Time and resource wise I am estimating that the hull is probably less than 10% of the whole project! It does use a separate and generally much larger tool set and is perhaps not as involve in the miniature world as constructing the small but active pieces such that we can place ourself in that small world.

Cheers! Tom


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:51 am 
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Hi all again,

After the merry adventures with the cable tray last weekend, I will take a rest with it before doing the rest of the wiring, and in the meanwhile I have already done something easier, the NT66131 and NT66132 aerials, that go in the "horns" on both sides of the aft stack. They were standard equipment, and therefore, USS McGowan had them:
Attachment:
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Although probably obsolete at the time, Jorge Juan still retained them many years later:
Attachment:
(795).jpg
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Same aerials in a much better view on board USS The Sullivans:
Attachment:
(793).JPG
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And the final product. To facilitate the process I had to change the angles a bit, but the result is aceptable, I guess.
Attachment:
(794).jpg
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These elements are extremely fragile, and will be set in place and painted at the very end of the construction, but as for now, they are four things less to worry about.

Nice going and very best regards,

Willie.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:08 pm 
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Oh my! Tres dinky! Having fat fingers, I always like to have a couple of extras! Very nice work!! Tom


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 7:06 am 
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Hi there again, Tom and all the folks,

Fliger747 wrote:
Having fat fingers, I always like to have a couple of extras! Very nice work!!


Tom, thanks once more for your very kind remarks. Coming from such a talented modeler, they mean really a lot for me. And believe me, fat fingers are already a common place in my shipyard.

And after finishing the first radio and ECM antennas, this one was again communications week, having a try at the whip antennas afterwards. For once, I was using only pics from the Spanish Navy, something that is always appreciated.

I have to say that this ship has some surprises reg. antennas.

Firstable, the ones attached to the stacks, 66046 and 66047 whip antennas, these ones:
Attachment:
(796).jpg
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The picture is not very clear, but this one of D21 Lepanto, ex-USS Capps luckily is:
Attachment:
(797).JPG
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A very good sketch of this type of whip antennas shows many small details:
Attachment:
(798).jpg
(798).jpg [ 24.49 KiB | Viewed 1401 times ]

Without a 3D printer, to reproduce all this is obviously out of the question, so I had to reduce the elements to a recognizable minimum, and also to use standarized Evergreen profiles to make sure all the elements were identical, i.e., 2.5x2.5 mm. strip for the line termination boxes, 3.2x0.5 mm. strips for the supports, 0.75x0.4 mm. strips for the fundations and 2.5 tube for the insulators bases. The building process is easy, and the proportions fit the purpose quite well:
Attachment:
(799).jpg
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Attachment:
(800).jpg
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There are two more antennas on both sides of the flying bridge, and one more aft of mount nr.2, all three hanging on different supports, that have little in common with the ones on the stacks:
Attachment:
(801).jpg
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For the one on the rear of mount nr.2, I used the same elements as before:
Attachment:
(802).jpg
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The ones on the bridge were not that easy. I had to use a piece of sprue and reduce it to 3.2 mm., as Evergreen 2.4/2.5 rod or tubing was too thin for this. For the fundations I used 0.5x0.4 strip, only to find that thin as it is, its resistance to make curves is remarkable. Applying a flame was impossible, so I had to heat the (luckily!!!) 3mm. handle of one of my files and make the strips turn on it. Exasperating, because too much heat would melt the piece or make it break; too less would produce no effect at all. Any way, patience is something that we modelers have in great heaps, and at last I was able to produce this :
Attachment:
(803).jpg
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As for the antennas themselves, I used segments of 0.75 Evergreen rod, that are acceptably telescopic to the 2.5 tube, and made circles with 2.4 rod, opening 0.75 sharp holes in the middle:
Attachment:
(804).jpg
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And so is the complete set at the moment:
Attachment:
(805).jpg
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Once everything is in place, I will try to add some detail to the insulators. Who knows, perhaps I can do something else in them.

In the meanwhile, I hope you like the progress, and best regards from this side of the Atlantic,

Willie.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:34 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 1:15 am
Posts: 5062
Willie:

Where do you get the huge match sticks? Certainly your parts can't be so tiny! Kidding aside, wonderful clean and detailed parts. Rather amazing how many parts of all sorts must be replicated in even a small ship such as a destroyer. I seem to have penchant for knocking antennas loose once attached to the model!

Best regards: Tom


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 8:28 am 
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Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2006 7:36 am
Posts: 681
Location: Vigo, Spain
Hi again, Tom and all,

Fliger747 wrote:
I seem to have penchant for knocking antennas loose once attached to the model!


Welcome to the so called Two Left Hands club. It has happened to me so often that I have had to refrain me from setting small or delicate things in place before everything else is. You cannot see them kind of finished, but it will save lots of trouble in the long run.

As for the antennas, I thought yesterday that they were somehow bare. Not that much can be done even in this big 1/144 scale, but I have given them a further push today. Firstable I made a small stretched sprue spring on a 0.75 mm. needle, and then I cut several circles from it:
Attachment:
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(806).jpg [ 240.64 KiB | Viewed 1339 times ]

Then I made some small cones carving with sandpaper sections of 2.5 mm. Evergreen tube:
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(807).jpg [ 262.78 KiB | Viewed 1339 times ]

Then I slid a circle and a cone in place, sealing the the thing with a small drop of liquid poly:
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(808).jpg [ 278.48 KiB | Viewed 1339 times ]

Not that it is close to reality, but at least it will fill the gap for now. If in the future I imagine a better way to do this, and as these pieces were very easy to make, I can dispose of them with no hesitation, and make a new set.

Nice going from this side,

Willie.

_________________
Amen dico tibi, hodie mecum eris in paradiso (Lk 23,43).


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