The Ship Model Forum

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Bob,

I would like to say that I much like your thread due to your approach to modeling this great ship (and of course the result). I would like to propose you some information on deck color I have from Russian forums being native speaker. Please note that so far I am not an expert in these ships yet (will do one of them definitely later) so everything I write is to my best knowledge so I advise you to consult with your other sources also.

Anyway as to the deck color I have an information that on Russian navy they have used the paint called ЭКЖС-40 (ethynol paint with iron minium (red iron oxide) and the sample of it looks as follows:


It can give the following look when fresh-painted and polished:


or not so fresh-painted


So if I were making Petr Velikiy I would have definitely painted it completely different than you show.

As to Kirov while I do not have many color photos of it (they were top-secret that time ) here is one (as non-expert I can not confirm that it is exactly Kirov but the English inscription on photo says so ):


There were different renderings of Kirov type cruisers on models – example (Petr):


I believe it is most close to the color you have chosen. My suggestion (remember what I have said about lack of my expertise in these ships above) would be if you do not what that bright reddish color as on Petr you shall still add some red hue to your color which so far looks too brown.

Finally on of my favourite photos of Kirov (again can not judge whether it is exactly Kirov) for your inspiration and continuing your great job


Yevgeniy

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I would dare to speculate that the colour shift might have been post-soviet or similar timeline - IIRC, Velikiy was put in for a refit at some point, which would have seen the paint redone likely, or it might have been an overhaul.

Equally to note, it might be an effect of distance as well, in the shots, dulling out the colour of the decks, but that's simple postulation on the thought.

_________________
Die Panzerschiffe - Putting the Heavy in Heavy Cruiser since 1940.

It's not Overkill, it's Insurance.

If you think my plastic is crazy, check out my Line Art!
http://s37.photobucket.com/albums/e58/S ... %20Images/

I would not dare to say that I can better 'interpret' information - I can better 'translate' for sure but I will leave 'interpreting the facts' to you as I have only recently started to be interested in modern ships (my period is predreads +) and I am no expert. So if you need help with language issue for Kirov info - I will try to help.



I already asked for that on Russian forum and will tell you if I get any reliable answer.



It was definitely processed on computer (as it is written on the photo) but I believe not generated. Can not keep myself from sharing favourite photos of these great ships - not generated but unfortunately Petr

Hope you like it and sorry for off-top.

Yevgeniy

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I recall that the destroyers had that scheme also - dark brown/grey on the main deck and orangeish on the upper levels.

Here a photo of a Sovremenny taken in 1988 - you can see the much darker main deck:
http://www.navsource.narod.ru/photos/03 ... 473017.jpg

Here is another one, taken in 1993 - same colour difference:
http://www.navsource.narod.ru/photos/03 ... 501004.jpg

One in 2004:
http://www.navsource.narod.ru/photos/03 ... 483001.jpg

The Udaloys also use the same scheme, it appears.



However, it seems that Kirov could also be found with brickred for all decks:
http://www.navsource.narod.ru/photos/02 ... 165019.jpg

I would stick to the orange/red for all decks.

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De quoi s'agit-il?

Bob,

Just hazarding a guess, but it seems that the picture of that Kirov you posted, the ship is backlit at an angle, since the lower decks are shaded, and as such that Cross Swords platform would appear to be Empty, which would identify that one most likely as the Kalinin/Admiral Nakhimov. I don't know exactly, but I recall the discussion about the dark-decked Soviet boats is that it seems to have no pattern we could figure - I might hazard a guess that the dark deck could have been used with one of the fleets - anybody got any ideas? There's been noted differences at times between the colours of the different fleets of the Soviet and Russian navies, so it could well be such a case. That's just the top thought I had on it.

_________________
Die Panzerschiffe - Putting the Heavy in Heavy Cruiser since 1940.

It's not Overkill, it's Insurance.

If you think my plastic is crazy, check out my Line Art!
http://s37.photobucket.com/albums/e58/S ... %20Images/

Since we are guessing, here is my thoughts:

The darker colour on the deck is because it is not painted with the orange colour , so it is steel grey the colour to use or gunship grey. Previously in the CASF topic on the Kirovs or the Udaloys someone mentioned that the Russians did not use permanent antiskid on the ships decks. So there is a possibility that the deck is painted orange and then the dark antiskid makes the deck reddish bleck, which with the reflections of the sun looks reddish brown...

For the first assumption, it could be that the ships had to be commissioned to a specific fleet before painting their decks. The darker decks are mainly seen in pics from newly completed ships, as in the case of the Udaloy or Sovremeny.

For the second assumption, it sounds reasonable enough, and I am going to dry to wash with red watercolour an Udaloy deck which has been previously painted with Tamiya TS48 spray colour the equivalent of gunship grey.

_________________
NIKOS (NICK)
ΜΕΓΑ ΤΟ ΤΗΣ ΘΑΛΑΣΣΗΣ ΚΡΑΤΟΣ
(GREAT IS THE NATION THAT MASTERS THE SEAS)

And something about the language in the Russian forums. I use google translation tools to try and get the point, even though sometimes it is worse than just imagining...

_________________
NIKOS (NICK)
ΜΕΓΑ ΤΟ ΤΗΣ ΘΑΛΑΣΣΗΣ ΚΡΑΤΟΣ
(GREAT IS THE NATION THAT MASTERS THE SEAS)

Painting ship models is always an issue and we can always find exceptions on photos from ‘rules’. Russian sailors also know a rule that ‘…ship color will depend on the sort of paint which boatswain/senior sailor received in port and how he mixed it…’ (probably it exists not only with Russian navy)

Thus from majority of Kirov deck photos I would also pick the one suggested by Timmy in the post above as most general that is brick-orange hue (still I think it is a tiny portion 'more red' than on Bob model but it can be a effect of my monitor settings).

To add to the discussion of dark/grey color of decks I would say that on some Russian ships some decks were not painted brick-orange color but treated with some protective substance (I not sure it is even paint) giving it grey color.

Example (project 956, Sovremennyi)


Rendering it on 3d model (another ship )


While it can be difficult to model the same color as on the pic above some modelers say that Tamiya GUNMETAL paint gives a good approximation. One can also try to ‘dust a lead’ from the pencil and mix it with coat in a jar (I did not try any of it – it is just what they say).

Finally I offer to look at this link http://www.kreiserkirov.ru/photo.htm given to me on Russian forum at the request about Kirov decks (all this site is above Kirov and its crew, there are a few photos of previous WWII Kirov and some alternative weapon ideas for the new Kirov) and this photo http://www.kreiserkirov.ru/photo/1981xxx5.jpg. A comparison between the color of life-jackets (in shade) and decks can also give some conclusion (which in my opinion supports Timmy’s suggestion again).

Yevgeniy

Tamiya Gunmetal is a little too dark... Gunship grey with a wash is much more close...

_________________
NIKOS (NICK)
ΜΕΓΑ ΤΟ ΤΗΣ ΘΑΛΑΣΣΗΣ ΚΡΑΤΟΣ
(GREAT IS THE NATION THAT MASTERS THE SEAS)

If it provides any sort of reference for colour, I used Gunze Aqueous Dark Grey (2) for IJN vessels (airbrushed) for the grey deck on my Sovremenny, built back when I was young(er) and knew naught about research:
http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html

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De quoi s'agit-il?

Hello Bob,

the last picture you posted is actually Petr Velikiy. She was only seen with this colour after 2000 during a large exercise in the Baltic. Before that I haven't seen any pics of her with that scheme. So it's not really likely that Kirov herself would have had anything similar. Indeed the Velikiy colour seems to be the same as the regular Udaloy maindeck colour.
Apart from that, I have pics on which this brownish colour really looks black...
As for the orange issue, indeed it has been widely speculated that the darker red (and grey in some cases) are just fresh paint and that the paint is rapidly fading to orange (and lighter grey for hull). Not sure why, maybe the light conditions and the long days in the North cause this to go faster.

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The merchant shipyard

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I have to admit, I find that Shema_2 image on that Kirov site rather interesting - looking at the layout, it almost makes me think of a Kara and a Slava being merged together in a rather interesting way. The Kara style layout with a Slava/Kirov style armament - very double-ended in its defensive suite layout. Interestingly, it retains the Guns-Aft design, and the submerged hangar and other parts of the Kirov weapons layout - including reload hatches for the Rastrub launcher if you look, though the reload layout is reversed it would seem.

_________________
Die Panzerschiffe - Putting the Heavy in Heavy Cruiser since 1940.

It's not Overkill, it's Insurance.

If you think my plastic is crazy, check out my Line Art!
http://s37.photobucket.com/albums/e58/S ... %20Images/

They do not touch up as USN or the merchant does, they just paint the whole deck or walls altogether. I recall seeing some touch up painting, but that was rather by brush, spots too small to be noticed. I'll show you some picture of it, when I have it from my archive.
As for the entire deck theory, that is also the reason why some ships are seen with full green decks, and afterwards with the same deck red. The green is intermediate colour, a primer. The red is a secondary primer coat, depended on what was in the ships' stores I guess. I also have a couple of pics where the ships are in the middle of being repainted, with a very clear difference between the parts which were freshly painted, and the old parts. They might have changed colour during that painting session, or, they might have just repainted with the same colour, showing the fading effect. Luckily I have that picture available here.(and no, I don't think this is caused by the lighting )

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The merchant shipyard

Now that is some difference... Nice photo Neptune...

Sea grey 27 for the dark part, grey 64 for the upper ... or even 129 gull grey (Humbrol enamel numerals)...

_________________
NIKOS (NICK)
ΜΕΓΑ ΤΟ ΤΗΣ ΘΑΛΑΣΣΗΣ ΚΡΑΤΟΣ
(GREAT IS THE NATION THAT MASTERS THE SEAS)

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One could reason that it might be a case of something not related to UV in the paints, and instead a chemical change due to potentially the salty environment during the paint's aging. One wonders how often they go between paintings, but salt-wear and wind effect would be a good possibility - considering the ship takes wind in all directions over time, the wear of the paint would be rather noted.

Aside - that IS quite a noticable two-tone shift between the paints, and I find myself strangely drawn to actually paint a ship like that. I'd even throw in a green weather deck for good measure, with the deck being primed for painting like that.

One would wonder - how does the primer age over time? Is the black weather deck a phenomenon of salt water over a primer-done weather deck that hasn't been hit with the red paint? If you look closely, that dark deck looks like it might have been green at some point, and it does look Very severely weathered.

Just a few postulations.

_________________
Die Panzerschiffe - Putting the Heavy in Heavy Cruiser since 1940.

It's not Overkill, it's Insurance.

If you think my plastic is crazy, check out my Line Art!
http://s37.photobucket.com/albums/e58/S ... %20Images/