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SMS Hindenburg on the bottom....Scapa Flow--around 1925 http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=100731	Page 1 of 7

Author:	JIM BAUMANN [ Wed Apr 04, 2012 4:14 pm ]
Post subject:	SMS Hindenburg on the bottom....Scapa Flow--around 1925
After completing the Krassin- viewtopic.php?f=59&t=94035 -which was a lengthy project... I decided I needed a 'quick' project.... I wanted to portray the German High Seas fleet Battlecruiser Hindenburg some years after her scuttling- giving an opportunity for weathering!! alas the 'quick' project was quickly scuttled( haha...!) by the basis of the project being an elderly HP kit--kindly donated to me by Nick Dogger.... thank you! ( available to me as Nick some years ago may have run out of the will to correct the kits numerous flaws! Its a shame--as some recent HP offerings--whilst still expensive- have been excellent in both casting quality and accuracy - alas... this.... errr... first generation kit...-- is riddled with issues. Others have built this kit--and some have corrected some of the problems... http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html Fortunatly for my project most of the ship is under water.... and the boats had been landed.... nevertheless --tempting as it was to make a 'square' base for the model- as there was only the midships section visble at high tide.... Attachment: SMS_Hindenburg-ptqtr_Scapa-sunk.jpg [ 117.05 KiB \| Viewed 8821 times ] I chose to make it harder.... showing the vessel at low tide--with both fwd turrets visible and the bow breaking the surface Attachment: Hindenburg on the bottom 1919 low tide.jpg [ 112.9 KiB \| Viewed 8821 times ] which requires the full length of the ship to be ' implied'-- this perception is confirmed by the visible bow tip... It appears that the HP kit may have been based on somewhat flawed plans..? problems encountered so far with the kit.... Completely incorrect breakwater-kit has it as traditional 3 section affair in straight pieces... The real thing was rather different, being curved.... tricky to make--fortunately mine will be just vsisble thru approx 7 ft of (1/700 scale) water... Attachment: SMS_Hindenburg-breakwater-1.jpg [ 73.64 KiB \| Viewed 8821 times ] The turrets are dimensionally ok--but have quite simply the wrong shape! I am fortunate in having been sent excerpts of decent drawngs by Ex-modelwarshipper Peter Lienau( Ingura) --a retropsective thank you/ Danke schoen! These usefully show a sideprofile--which coupled with an overhead view of the turrets gave me a sporting chance... Attachment: PLAN 02.jpg [ 140.87 KiB \| Viewed 8821 times ] Attachment: turrets slanted section.jpg [ 76.12 KiB \| Viewed 8821 times ] Attachment: boatcovers 1510.jpg [ 95.35 KiB \| Viewed 8821 times ] Attachment: boatcovers 1509.jpg [ 78.76 KiB \| Viewed 8821 times ] The liferafts where rendered quite well--and I would have kept them-alas these were in the wong place! So it all came off and the glacis plate was re-shaped The funnels look dimensionally OK--but I sanded them smooth in readiness for making the edges and sided parralell..(!!) The funnel caps are OK--not brilliant--but ok/... however the tops of the funnels are pure fiction! I hollowed the caps out carefully with a motor tool--and also hollowed out the body of the funnel after squaring up the casting... Attachment: boatcovers 1506.jpg [ 98.67 KiB \| Viewed 8821 times ] Attachment: funnel- tops.jpg [ 119.27 KiB \| Viewed 8821 times ] The aft superstructure 'add-on' block was too high--had the wrong angle on the top and possesed some strange 'wing' structures ( (!!) that are not to be seen in plans or photos--off they came...! The Hull has been mounted in its case-base-board at an angle ...-the scuttled ship was not level with the waterline , but she had settled more at the stern-- only the very fwd tip of the bow broke the surface at low tide This requires the full length of the ship to be ' implied'-- re-enforced by the visible bow tip... Attachment: boatcovers 1512.jpg [ 76.3 KiB \| Viewed 8821 times ] I will bring up the water level using clear Windsor and Newton Acrylic texture gel--as suggested by Bill Livingston ( having removed all the previously applied white glue(!!!) so that is the progress to date.... I have started making all the new platforms, pilot house, re-shaping the conning tower , boat cradles, etc etc etc# simple project indeed.... Ha! Jim Baumann

Author:	Stefano Salesi [ Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: SMS Hindenburg on the bottom....Scapa Flow--around 1925
really intresting project. something that deserve a lot of attention. I love your way of keeping a project...well, simple

Author:	Bill Livingston [ Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:23 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: SMS Hindenburg on the bottom....Scapa Flow--around 1925
You took off all the white glue off??!!!! Bloody Hell! Had it dried by then...? Ooooh... Now THIS is going to be interesting... the idea of Hindenburg at low tide in 700 scale is something I will drive down to see first hand once you have done... I don't think I have looked forward to completion as much as this since I have been following your builds... and as you know... it's been years! Fantastic start too... although I'm surprised you hollowed out the funnels rather than scratch them... I'm impressed with your control over your dremel... I would have gone through the funnel wall a few times trying that This time it is going to be interesting following what you choose to leave off, rather than what you have added... and the gel will allow underwater detail and colour to be seen too... Really... I can't wait to see it... although it is going to be challenging photographing it and capturing the undersurface detail and colour... good lighting and polarising filters at the ready I would guess. Now, only one thing left to say right now... Hurry up!!!! (By the way, the two pairs of Fiskars arrived this morning. I had a play when I got home this evening... you are right, perfect. Clean and easy... although those little tags between the two halves of the paired net shelf brackets as per the Koenig set are still awkward, but do-able. Had a play cutting railing and my god... fast and clean... I should have bought these years ago. Brilliant recommendation, thanks Jim )

Author:	MartinJQuinn [ Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: SMS Hindenburg on the bottom....Scapa Flow--around 1925
Bill Livingston wrote: Now, only one thing left to say right now... Hurry up!!!! LOL! Yes, what Bill said. This is going to be very cool - can't wait to see more!!

Author:	drdoom1337 [ Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: SMS Hindenburg on the bottom....Scapa Flow--around 1925
Jim! it seems like we're always on the same page! I plan on buliding the Graf Spee scuttled in Monte Video (1/400). I'll definitely be using your build as a guide. I still haven't finished Ryurik LOL!

Author:	Dino Carancini [ Thu Apr 05, 2012 4:10 am ]
Post subject:	Re: SMS Hindenburg on the bottom....Scapa Flow--around 1925
..I will follow with interst! For some time I had in my mind the USS Arizona memorial, using some clear resin, but I gave up because the two components resin doesn't dry flat. It tends to wrap around the emerged structures. Will be interesting to see your way! dino

Author:	angeleyes [ Thu Apr 05, 2012 4:31 am ]
Post subject:	Re: SMS Hindenburg on the bottom....Scapa Flow--around 1925
Lets see then how much time one can spend on 2 funnels..

Author:	P.F.N. [ Thu Apr 05, 2012 5:19 am ]
Post subject:	Re: SMS Hindenburg on the bottom....Scapa Flow--around 1925
Hi Jim, interessting project - I always wanted to build something simular, but wasn't quite sure how too - so I'll be closley watching this one Cheers Paul

Author:	Olaf Held [ Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:20 am ]
Post subject:	Re: SMS Hindenburg on the bottom....Scapa Flow--around 1925
JIM BAUMANN wrote: I will bring up the water level using clear Windsor and Newton Acrylic texture gel--as suggested by Bill Livingston ( having removed all the previously applied white glue(!!!) Well, I recommend doing extensive testing first in order to avoid another messy water removing job from the model... Sunken/scuttled ships (submerged subs, just the periscope to model?) are a neat idea: you don't need PE people (except for some divers maybe, or PE fish, HA!) and you don't have to explain the absence of smoke from the funnels... (what about debirs and oil spillage? Well, coal in this case? I'm not THAT familiar with WWI battlestars). Happy modelling ~ Olaf!

Author:	bismarck builder [ Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:38 am ]
Post subject:	Re: SMS Hindenburg on the bottom....Scapa Flow--around 1925
hi jim since when did you ever do a quick build gary

Author:	Bill Livingston [ Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:48 am ]
Post subject:	Re: SMS Hindenburg on the bottom....Scapa Flow--around 1925
Olaf Held wrote: Well, I recommend doing extensive testing first in order to avoid another messy water removing job from the model... Yes... I do too... A few squares of plastic/resin and some brass rod and some PE railings on a fictitious test piece of similar complexity would be a great idea. Gel is quite viscous... it would be good to test a few scratch built assemblies to see what it looks like before committing a beautifully modelled ship to a gel bath... You would need serious cojones and a decent bottle of malt to numb the pre-gel anxiety otherwise... On the other hand, if it works out as it could, you would get beautiful depth and the ability to have coloured translucent water (disturbed sand, oil perhaps, and other debris) in and around key areas below the surface and make something unbelievably dramatic and realistic.

Author:	orionv [ Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:25 am ]
Post subject:	Re: SMS Hindenburg on the bottom....Scapa Flow--around 1925
Hello jim Again and again a fabulous project Rémy

Author:	JIM BAUMANN [ Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: SMS Hindenburg on the bottom....Scapa Flow--around 1925
well now... this kit continues to amaze me with its significant inaccuracies and simplification. I can only conclude--as mentioned above that the model was based on flawed plans.... as I simply cannot see any other reasoning for all the -- for want of a better word... " wrongness " !! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The previously hollowed funnel caps did not exhibit the distictive slant to the cowling... being simply a flat ' sheet ' Attachment: funnel cap overhangs.jpg [ 89.97 KiB \| Viewed 8520 times ] I added a slice of resin wafer to the undersides of the cap parts , and used the motortool to carve thru the upper layer to achieve the depth of slant. However... the overhang was not large enough--and in fairness due to my own incompetence the edge was not as sharp or consisten in shape as I would have liked.... So I added some 0.1 mm thin copperwire around the perimeter-to gain overhang as well as a cleaner edge--and then backfilled with white glue and paint; a light sand and a final coat shoul have it looking more convincing. Attachment: boatcovers 1526.jpg [ 73.96 KiB \| Viewed 8520 times ] I will then reduce the height of the cowls sticking up by about 0.2 mm- a light swipe with a sanding stick should do it... The fwd superstructure base had the distinctive slanted glacis added to the edges( (armoured ..? for shell deflection?) The port-holes had where applicable the hinged lids added--made of sights from 1/700 AA PE- Attachment: boatcovers 1528.jpg [ 95.04 KiB \| Viewed 8520 times ] these had a dab of white glue to homogenise the surface and painted. Attachment: boatcovers 1518.jpg [ 73.47 KiB \| Viewed 8520 times ] By 1924/25 the partially submerged Hindenburg was looking rather shabby--having been raided by the locals for anything useful made of metal - that could be reached above the low water mark...including rivets!! plenty of scope for " over weathering " ...! The collected silt around the superstructure edges on the after submerged decks has been added -- ( it will show only as a faint outline when viewed from directly above - invisible from any inclined viewing angle at least that the plan!! ) Study of photos suggested that the kit has a MASSIVE flaw in the superstructure shapes--I should have spotted this earlier... alas hindsight is a wonderful thing!! The fwd funnel continues to the o1 deck level-- so out came the motortool for more in-situ surgery--thankfully this area will be awash... Attachment: boatcovers 1540.jpg [ 109.02 KiB \| Viewed 8520 times ] The upper mast levels as supplied in the kit were laughable in both shape and detailing... and were discarded. The new parts were made of styrene and resin wafer( machines nicely) as well as the tripod mast legs cut to size--with the centre column installed so as to get a datum point for all the levels nd leg alignment relative to the funnel. Attachment: boatcovers 1533.jpg [ 111.23 KiB \| Viewed 8520 times ] Attachment: boatcovers 1537.jpg [ 107.73 KiB \| Viewed 8520 times ] Ingura's plans and the graphics supplied by Peppe have been invaluable in gaining an understanding of the seeminlgy simple -- but actually rather complex structures !! example excerpt below--this dispels much of the guesswork-- ( assuming it is the truth...!) certainly aligns ok with the photos to my eyes .... Attachment: Hindenburg Mast 4.jpg [ 106.47 KiB \| Viewed 8520 times ]

Author:	JIM BAUMANN [ Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:49 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: SMS Hindenburg on the bottom....Scapa Flow--around 1925
A lot of the time spent so far...==> for little visible tangible result in this project .... is taken up by simply looking and re-re-relooking at photos and plans ... and trying to understand the layout of the levels and the general arrangement of the platforms. I think I am getting there..... a lot of minor issues have been solved-- and the making of platforms is dull--but going on apace Here is an interesting nugget of frustration to share.... It seems that the aft funnel was a a trifle shorter.... Attachment: PLAN 01.jpg [ 142.65 KiB \| Viewed 8413 times ]

Author:	LE BOSCO [ Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:39 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: SMS Hindenburg on the bottom....Scapa Flow--around 1925
Hello Jim Your project is really original and "seen" by you, it'll still be a masterpiece of subtlety best regards Nicolas

Author:	aleccap [ Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:53 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: SMS Hindenburg on the bottom....Scapa Flow--around 1925
I can only agree it nice to see an original project, but will you be able to hold your nerve ? A ship with no rigging

Author:	JIM BAUMANN [ Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:20 am ]
Post subject:	Re: SMS Hindenburg on the bottom....Scapa Flow--around 1925
This an intersting and at the same time frustrating project... The kit--as I have harangued before--does not bear much resemblance to any photos--especially in the fwd bridge area.... after a lot of study... it is at last making progress... It has all been scratchbuilt using brass PE fret scrap and styrene sheet. I feel I have got past the blockage.... and feel confident that I can complete the model in a not mind-bendingly long ampount of time-- new projects are awaiting! anyhow The bridge lookout structure was made of brass PE fret waste with a floor of styrene. Note the floor is made of paper tacked in place with white glue. The funnel secton join flanges were made of thin wire wrapped aroudn the funnel and joined at the fwd face. The conning tower sighting slits were made of strips of decal strip cut with a sharp blade Attachment: boatcovers 1661.jpg [ 117.68 KiB \| Viewed 8182 times ] fortunately most of what is seen will be under water.... The join ahead of A turret is wheer I ' adjusted' the casting so as to give the correct attitude of the hull relative to the waterline as seen in photos; I dont think the kit hull had sufficeient sheer to allow the bow tip to break the surface Attachment: boatcovers 1664.jpg [ 129.07 KiB \| Viewed 8182 times ] The roof of the lookouts was made of styrene- it really was that thick...! Attachment: roof thickness.jpg [ 124.46 KiB \| Viewed 8182 times ] Attachment: boatcovers 1668.jpg [ 106.74 KiB \| Viewed 8182 times ] Attachment: boatcovers 1669.jpg [ 92.54 KiB \| Viewed 8182 times ] The wheelhouse ahead of the conning tower had a roof--thatwas facetted and a slightyy unusual shape. I trued making this in paper and also in styrene sheet--each time it looked unsatisfactoy to my eyes... In the end I made small sprue struts and made the roof of white glue Attachment: boatcovers 1671.jpg [ 137.25 KiB \| Viewed 8182 times ] Attachment: boatcovers 1685.jpg [ 116.17 KiB \| Viewed 8182 times ] The upper pilot house(?) was also made of brass strip and ladderstock Attachment: boatcovers 1678.jpg [ 98.7 KiB \| Viewed 8182 times ] with some poaint it was all looking more encouraging.. Apologies for the poor quality photo--it was late...!! Attachment: boatcovers 1687.jpg [ 150.57 KiB \| Viewed 8182 times ] More soon Jim Baumann

Author:	JIM BAUMANN [ Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:17 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: SMS Hindenburg on the bottom....Scapa Flow--around 1925
Just found a video on-line of period footage of the raising of the Hindenburg poor quality-- but if one squints..(!!) once can still make out useful details... ignore the first 15-20 seconds of advertising--the footage is quite fascinating!! have a look here: some better quality British pathe fillm but quite as informative for the modeller.... http://www.britishpathe.com/video/salvi ... hindenberg and here is a video of her final voyage http://www.britishpathe.com/video/the-h ... ast-voyage

Author:	Bill Livingston [ Sun Apr 22, 2012 5:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: SMS Hindenburg on the bottom....Scapa Flow--around 1925
Great video clip Jim B... Don't you just love the 'received pronunciation' used by the narrator? I just love trying to work out the original regional accents... you often can... particularly with northern accents... Great stuff... I wish we could go back to that style of narration and news readers... at least we would all be able to understand what the hell people are saying... Have you worked out what Cheryl Cole is saying on the l'oreal adverts yet...? So... are you doing Hindenberg in the 26 hour window, complete with barnacles and mussels being scraped off the barrels, or copping out and doing the partly submerged initial idea? I wouldn't mind a go at a surface diorama of the totally sunk version... at least I might finish that!

Author:	Devin [ Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: SMS Hindenburg on the bottom....Scapa Flow--around 1925
Great project!

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