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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:34 am 
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Many thanks wefalck!

Dafi already send me some photo's of this model; I guess you were both at the same show. But the article is very interesting indeed!
It is a fantastic model indeed, and awe-inspiring.

I'm happy to work with plastic modellers materials and techniques myself, as I have no idea how he did that in wood. I hope to achieve a similar level of detail on the hull, masts, fittings etc. but it is of course much easier and faster in plastic than in wood. Luckily so, because I don't want to spend 10 years on it, and I still need to scratchbuild Le Redoutable... :)

But it will be very hard to get the rigging even somewhere close to that level... The article mentions that he made the lines himself, but not how he did it. Do you have any idea how he did it, or what would be good materials and techniques for those sizes (0,04 to 0,5mm)?

Cheers,

Marijn


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:51 am 
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Yes, dafi and some other Germans went to international event organised by inter alia the Asssociation des Amis de la Musée de la Marine (those you publish NEPTUNIA) in Rochefort, France.

Working in miniature myself, for me this model was one of the hightlights of the event. Not so much for the woodwork, but for the rigging. I have seen much bigger models with much less detail. For me this is a real challenge.

They told me what thread he used as starting material, but this is obviously a Japanese brand of some man-made fibres. I looked a bit on the Internet, but wasn't really able to identify the exact material he used, though I found the manufacturer's Web-site. For the time being I have settled myself on fly-tying yarns as used to make artificial flies for fly-fishing. The best brand in my view is the Danish Veevus, which goes down to size 16/0. Other brands are Caenis or UNI-thread. The Veevus 16/0 is a two-ply thread, which is good for a number of reasons, one of them is that it can be split into the yarns, another that the colour range is good for modelling. Tsurubi seems to have split such yarns even further and then used them in his miniature rope-walk. I have used different Veevus-threads to make proper ropes on my own miniature rope-walk. Going down to 0.1 mm certainly is not a problem.

Other miniaturist use wire. The obvious choice would be copper, which is easily availabe down to 0.04 mm diameter, but copper is rather soft and easily distorted, when you touch it by accident. Some people use NiCr-wire (as used in heating elements or in resistors, etc.), but this is not so easy to find. In recent years Molybdenum wire down to 0.03 mm has become quite easy to buy on ebay etc. due to the fact that it is used in mobile-phone repair to separate the broken glass from the LCD-screen. It is quite cheap and available in many different diameters. However, it is rather stiff and springy (good for making brass hand-rails on miniatures ...). All wires will have to be painted, of course.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:24 pm 
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Many thanks Wefalk!!!
That is most helpful.

Now I think some experimentation is in order... :smallsmile:
For the smaller diameters, I don't mind using single-strand (copper) wire (or stretched sprue), but the larger diameters will require the look of actual rope.
I will certainly have to build myself a small ropewalk, and try out the different materials.

Cheers,

Marijn


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:54 am 
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marijn van gils wrote:
But it will be very hard to get the rigging even somewhere close to that level... The article mentions that he made the lines himself, but not how he did it. Do you have any idea how he did it, or what would be good materials and techniques for those sizes (0,04 to 0,5mm)?


As a side note to this, note the effect in the picture of using various diameters of thread. The lower stays are thicker than the topmast shrouds that are thicker than the topgallant shrouds. And the running rigging is thinner than those again. But, although there are a gazillion different diameters of rigging on the real ship you don't really need more than five or six for the model, it still looks fantastic.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:19 am 
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Stunning work... what more can be said... yes you place the pictures, and we are all in awe... and it can only make us try to break through our own limits to push the bar higher each time...


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:39 am 
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Excellent work, Marijn


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:12 am 
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Many thanks guys! :smallsmile: :smallsmile: :smallsmile:

Bouncy70 wrote:
As a side note to this, note the effect in the picture of using various diameters of thread. The lower stays are thicker than the topmast shrouds that are thicker than the topgallant shrouds. And the running rigging is thinner than those again. But, although there are a gazillion different diameters of rigging on the real ship you don't really need more than five or six for the model, it still looks fantastic.

Yes!!!
Luckily, the 'anatomy of the ship' book has a table with the diameters of each piece of rigging. Like you mention, I probably won't use more than 5 or 6 different diameters, but that table will help a lot assign each rope to those.


Meanwhile, the beackhead is ready, and the catheads installed. Victory’s starboard cathead was lost during the approach to the enemy line, so I ‘splintered’ it. The rest of the bows will receive battle damage too later.
The marines walk and bowsprit are still detachable.

Image

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I also started on the guns.
My friend Staf Snyers lent me this lovely lathe, after showing me how to use it:
Image

And after a couple of tries, and a lot of fun (turning on a lathe realy is a blast! Why didn’t I do this much earlier?!): a 32 pounder barrel:
Image

Turning all 150+ guns would take too much time. Therefore, I will turn one of each type and have them cast in resin. Hence I left a rod attached to the muzzle end, to attach the piece to a pouring block for casting. This means I will have to drill out all barrels after casting, but that’s a relatively small price to pay…

Cheers,

Marijn


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:18 am 
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Only a couple of tries? :eyes_spinning: How did you do the taper? DOn't see a cross slide on that cute lathe?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:25 am 
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After some messing about on a thicker piece to get the basic feeling, this was the third try.

With the first, I got the angle way too quickly too sharp. Lesson learned: easy on the angle for conical pieces; and add if necessary.

With the second, I left the knob at the rear end to the end. But when I applied a bit too much pressure to it, the 'rod' at the muzzle end flexed and broke. Lesson learned: always work from the right to the left, especially with thin pieces. And only remove thin shavings with thin pieces.

Third try: success!
I think most of the next guns should succeed from the first try now.

I printed a 1/30 scale plan of the gun, so for 1/300 scale I could transfer 1mm measurements to 1/10mm measurements on the lathe easily. That helped a lot for working accurately and methodically.

The entire turning assembly, including the engine, of the lathe can turn. Only, there are no indications for the angle, so I have to do it by eye.
Therefore, I first turn the entire piece to the widest diameter. Next, I set the lathe at an angle (rather too small than too large), and turn the piece, starting at the widest end. Next I measure the diameter at the narrow end with digital calipers. If still too much, I increase the angle a bit. An so on until the diameter and therefore the angle is correct.
I'm not sure if this is clear? Maybe I can do a simple SBS the next time?

Cheers,

Marijn


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:30 am 
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Wonderful progress!

XXXDAn

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See also our german forum for the age of Sail and History:
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 4:57 pm 
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Regarding ropes - unless the sizes are explicitly quoted as being the diameter, rope sizes are normally given as the circumference. Obviously that tends to be a somewhat larger number! So be careful that you check which measure your source is using.

Excellent work on this so far! I think most wooden ship modellers would tackle the turning of all the guns with the bitt between their teeth of course :D But then the scale is rather smaller than they would typically work in. Although that said, have you looked at using patterns with your lathe? That's the normal approach to this kind of thing for mass-production terms. [edit: not sure you could use a pattern with that lathe...]

Have you found any decent sources for the design of the French guns? There will be subtle differences vs the Blomfield (or Armstrong?) pattern guns to be found on Victory... probably the most noticeable differences were in the carriage designs though.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:43 pm 
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Martocticvs wrote:
Have you found any decent sources for the design of the French guns? There will be subtle differences vs the Blomfield (or Armstrong?) pattern guns to be found on Victory... probably the most noticeable differences were in the carriage designs though.


Boudriot will have that, "The 74-gun ship" vol III or IV, I can't remember offhand. To lazy to walk to the bookshelf and look.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:50 pm 
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marijn van gils wrote:
Turning all 150+ guns would take too much time. Therefore, I will turn one of each type and have them cast in resin. Hence I left a rod attached to the muzzle end, to attach the piece to a pouring block for casting. This means I will have to drill out all barrels after casting, but that’s a relatively small price to pay…


Be careful when drilling the hole for the trunnions... they are off-center to the gun barrel (the trunnion axis should be tangent to the bore of the gun), and the drill has a nasty tendency to slip and ruin things. Don't ask me how I know... Perhaps it would be easier to make an intermediate mould of the barrel only, then add trunnions to a resin copy from that (resin drills easier than brass) and then make a final mould from the now-complete gun? Just a thought.

The lathe is a very old type... it does not have a cross slide that I can see, but you can perhaps swivel the entire motor end of the lathe and get taper that way? Sherline-style so to speak.

Lathes are fun though. I have a Proxxon myself. Lovely piece of kit.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:55 am 
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Many thanks guys! :) :) :)

Martocticvs wrote:
Regarding ropes - unless the sizes are explicitly quoted as being the diameter, rope sizes are normally given as the circumference. Obviously that tends to be a somewhat larger number! So be careful that you check which measure your source is using.

Yes, that table states only the circumference indeed. It is also in inches instead of cm. I'll have some calculating to do! :big_grin:

Martocticvs wrote:
I think most wooden ship modellers would tackle the turning of all the guns with the bitt between their teeth of course :D But then the scale is rather smaller than they would typically work in. Although that said, have you looked at using patterns with your lathe? That's the normal approach to this kind of thing for mass-production terms. [edit: not sure you could use a pattern with that lathe...]

I'm also not sure. But I think the pieces are too small anyway. That barrel is only 10mm long, and it is the longest type! The rims are only 0,2mm wide, which I don't think a pattern would allow for, at least not in a sharp way. More importantly, the barrel is only 2,1mm thick at its' widest point. The piece flexes when being worked in the lathe, so it does take some 'feeling' too when working it.
But repeatability is not the problem. The slides of the lathe are scaled and work accurately, so by following the measurements I can easily make identical parts. But resin casting would simply be much faster. And since I will need 104 guns for Victory alone, and another 74 for Redoutable (minus the lower deck guns at Vic's side, since these gunports were closed to prevent boarding), speed is a factor I like to take into account. :)
Besides, I will have more stuff to cast: gun carriages, deadeyes, blocks, ... I will prepare them together, so they can be cast together to make that process faster and easier.

Bouncy70 wrote:
Martocticvs wrote:
Have you found any decent sources for the design of the French guns? There will be subtle differences vs the Blomfield (or Armstrong?) pattern guns to be found on Victory... probably the most noticeable differences were in the carriage designs though.

Boudriot will have that, "The 74-gun ship" vol III or IV, I can't remember offhand. To lazy to walk to the bookshelf and look.

No need! I have all volumes in my bookshelf too... :big_grin:
Indeed, I will turn a master for each type, and of course different ones for the French and the English. Anyway, they were of different calibres too...

Bouncy70 wrote:
Be careful when drilling the hole for the trunnions... they are off-center to the gun barrel (the trunnion axis should be tangent to the bore of the gun), and the drill has a nasty tendency to slip and ruin things. Don't ask me how I know... Perhaps it would be easier to make an intermediate mould of the barrel only, then add trunnions to a resin copy from that (resin drills easier than brass) and then make a final mould from the now-complete gun? Just a thought.

Many thanks for the idea! :)
But I won't drill any holes for trunnions. Since these pieces are so small (barrel is about 1,6mm wide at the trunnions, and this is the 32 pounder! A trunnion is only 0,6mm thick) I will have the trunnions simply as a part of the carriage instead of the barrel. Only for a couple of dismounted guns, I will add trunnions, but I will simply glue them on the barrel since they don't need to carry any weight.

Bouncy70 wrote:
The lathe is a very old type... it does not have a cross slide that I can see, but you can perhaps swivel the entire motor end of the lathe and get taper that way? Sherline-style so to speak.

Lathes are fun though. I have a Proxxon myself. Lovely piece of kit.

Yes, the entire motor end of the lathe swivels. There is a pin with a bolt-head directly below the nameplate that locks it in place. It swivels on the seam you see below that, and a bolt on the left of the lathe tightens the assembly (has a hex key in it on the photo). Takes a bit of trial and error to get the angle right, but it works! :)
Lathes are a lot of fun indeed! I wonder why I didn't do this earlier?
This machine is borrowed. I love the old look (nostalgia! :) ), but will be looking to get my own, and Proxxon is on the list... Which type do you have, and what advantages and disadvantages did you experience with it?

Cheers,

Marijn


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:46 am 
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marijn van gils wrote:

Bouncy70 wrote:
Be careful when drilling the hole for the trunnions... they are off-center to the gun barrel (the trunnion axis should be tangent to the bore of the gun), and the drill has a nasty tendency to slip and ruin things. Don't ask me how I know... Perhaps it would be easier to make an intermediate mould of the barrel only, then add trunnions to a resin copy from that (resin drills easier than brass) and then make a final mould from the now-complete gun? Just a thought.

Many thanks for the idea! :)
But I won't drill any holes for trunnions. Since these pieces are so small (barrel is about 1,6mm wide at the trunnions, and this is the 32 pounder! A trunnion is only 0,6mm thick) I will have the trunnions simply as a part of the carriage instead of the barrel. Only for a couple of dismounted guns, I will add trunnions, but I will simply glue them on the barrel since they don't need to carry any weight.


Of course... I keep forgetting the miniscule scale of your work. That should do nicely. I did this in 1/72, where I couldn't really fudge it.

marijn van gils wrote:
This machine is borrowed. I love the old look (nostalgia! :) ), but will be looking to get my own, and Proxxon is on the list... Which type do you have, and what advantages and disadvantages did you experience with it?


I have a Proxxon PD-230. It is a sturdy bit of kit, and a lot of necessary to nice-to-have doodads are available for it. Easy to put away when not needed. Well designed. Rigid - it's cast iron. It has automatic feed, nice to have. It is more than strong enough for any realistic workpiece. The cross-slide is indexable for easy tapering. I like the 230, it is just what I need! In general, dead weight and rigidity are Good Things when it comes to machine-tools. The Proxxon line has these.

On the minus side, it is quite expensive for its size, and it is on the small side (it is easy to do small work on a large lathe, it is not easy to do large work on a small lathe). A counterpoint to that is that it starts and stops quickly and won't try to tear your fingers off (100-kilo lathes on the other hand will happily do that... a full-sized workshop lathe is a frankly dangerous piece of equipment that CAN and WILL try to maim you unless you keep your wits about you at ALL times... handle with care!!!) What you get in the Proxxon box is less than what you need to start using it - a tailstock drill-chuck is frankly NOT an optional extra, for starters!

There is a smaller brother, FD 150, and a bigger brother the PD 400. Either can be worth a look depending on your needs, wallet and available room.

As a very healthy alternative to the Proxxon line check out the US-made Sherline lathe system. It is a _very_ complete system with a lot of extras available, the aluminium-based machine itself is not quite as strong nor as rigid as the cast-iron Proxxon kit but it does the job. The Sherline is a fine piece of American engineering, an interesting counterpoint to the very German (perhaps one should say Japanese... that is another matter) Proxxon.


https://www.proxxon.com/en/micromot/pre ... ystems.php
https://www.sherline.com/


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 10:08 am 
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The lathe is an old Unimat SL and of course, it does have a cross-slide - you see the crank in the middle of the picture. The crank for lengthwise movement is out of the picture to the right of the machine ...

I would hate to and hesitate to work on such items with a three-jaw chuck. One has to pay too much attention not to get into conflict with the spinning jaws. If you envisage to work more freqently on such small parts, I would look for a lathe that can take collets. A collet chuck would be the second best option. The best tool for such small parts, however, would be a watchmakers lathe.

Working from right to left is a lesson well learnt. Indeed, one should leave as much stock as possible to the left for as long as possible in order to keep the part stiff. If you are making masters, rather than brass cannon that will be chemically blackened, you would also turn the cannon in two parts, i,e, the main barrel and the bottom with the pommel separate, and solder them together afterwards. That makes the turning simpler.

For such turning operations I use a cutting tool that is ground like a cut-off tool, i.e. that has 0.5 mm wide cutting edge. This is easy to grind from a HSS-bit on the bench-grinder. For brass the tool does not need a top-rake, so only the sides need to be ground.

The cross-bore for the trunnion hole can be done on the lathe as well. You would need to make a wooden insert for the steel-holder that sets the barrel at the correct height (see comments above on the position of the trunnions). For drilling don't use a drill, but rather an end-mill. If commercial end-mill are to big, it is also possible to grind a brocken twist drill flat at the end. Not an effiicient tool, but it does the job and is not deflected like a pointed twist-drill.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 5:27 pm 
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wefalck wrote:
The lathe is an old Unimat SL and of course, it does have a cross-slide - you see the crank in the middle of the picture. The crank for lengthwise movement is out of the picture to the right of the machine ...


My bad... I should have said an _indexable_ cross slide of course.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 10:28 am 
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Many thanks for all the lathe-advices Bouncy70 and Wefalck! :thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1:
(and sorry for the late reply; I was out...)

Next to the other advice, a collet would be a good idea indeed. Now I have to be careful indeed not to get the chissel touch the chuck. Luckily, I work slow and carefully for this kind of stuff anyway, so even if I touch it is only very slight and can correct quickly. But still...

Great tip on using end-mills instead of drills too!

One more question: can watchmakers lathes also handle pieces that are a bit longer? For example, masts of about 6 cm length? Or thicker pieces, licke 1,5cm diameter? I see stuff like that in my future too, and would hate to have to buy 2 lathes to get all jobs done... :)


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 10:44 am 
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Collets and collet chuck are available for the Proxxon and Sheline lathes but they are expensive. I have never used a proper watchmaker's lathe but the ones I have seen are very small indeed.

https://proxxon-us-shop.com/products/co ... r-pd-250-e
https://www.sherline.com/product-catego ... s-collets/

Collets give great concentricity to the workpiece which is not to be sneezed at. They also remove the three-jaw chuck from the setup which gives a tidier workplace, there is less to bang fingers or tools into. I haved lived happily without them so far though so they are not strictly necessary. Nice to have.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 11:11 am 
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Watchmakers lathes come in different sizes with lengths between centres ranging from about 150 mm to 250 mm. There are the so-called D-bed lathes that have round bed with a flat a the back and there are the larger WW-lathes. Centre height is between 40 and 50 mm. Have a look here: http://www.maritima-et-mechanika.org/tools/toolsmain.html. So parts of 15 mm diameter or 70 mm length are well within the enveloppe.

For model work I almost exclusively use collets. They are so more convenient and a lot safer than messing around with a 3-jaw-chuck. Also, if you have to re-chuck a part, chances are much better that it runs true in a collet - in an 3-jaw-chuck it almost certainly will not.

Sherline offers an adapter and drawbar for standard watchmakers WW-collets. Their own collets are quite expensive, it migh be better to find them second-hand. They also offer some collets that fit directly into the spindle, but the size range is limited, as these are meant for tool-holding not work-holding.

As good as PROXXON machines in general are, their choice of collets is a dead-end, as they are proprietary, as far as I am aware. You can't find them on the third-party market. One should also add that they double-slotted, like ES-collets, which are really meant for tool-holding, not for work-holding. Pieces that nre shorter than the collet are not really held securely - in the watchmaking collets you can hold parts securely that are as long as their diameter.

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