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PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2020 9:05 am 
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Just another piece of curiosity.

USS Constitution has, presently, glass windows in her quarter galleries. As does the Victory.

But it was not always so. in the link below you can see a late 1800 early 1900s Constitution that appears to have windows similar to the ones of Trincomalee.

That leaves me a reasonable doubt if the present looks of the Victory match her "true service time" looks. :whistle:

https://www.digitalcommonwealth.org/search/commonwealth-oai:pn89dt160

Edit. Not helping none. I know. :heh:


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 7:04 am 
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Many thanks Martocticvs and Kurusu!
I think I will provide Victory with some mock windows indeed...


Meanwhile, now that the hulls are constructed, it was time to define the composition:
Image

The masts, sails, boats etc. are only mock-ups. They were quickly and crudely fashioned from simple plastic rod and tube, tissue paper, and insulation foam. Their only purpose is to provide the correct dimensions and volumes for defining the overall composition.

To give you a better idea of what I have in mind:
Image

Number 1 is a bunch of wreckage with some sailors clinging to it. A boat is in the process of rescuing them:
Image

Number 2 is another boat rowing towards other sailors in the water:
Image

Number 3 is just a detail at the hull: some sailors climbing on a loose anchor, or maybe trying to fasten it again?:
Image

Number 4 is more wreckage:
Image

Number 5 are boats towed by the two men o’ war. One of them will be badly damaged and half submersed.

Number 6 will be small water columns from round shot hitting the water. These will carry more visual weight when finished, as there will also be white circular ripples in the water where shot has landed a moment earlier.

So, the main focal point will obviously be the two ships slogging it out.
In the foreground, there will be wreckage, sailors in the water, and boats trying to rescue them.
In the background, there will be shot falling that has been fired by Santissima Trinidad.

The men on Victory will be firing the guns in both directions: to starboard to Redoutable in the diorama and to port to Santissima Trinidad outside of the diorama. But the marines and sailors will fire their muskets etc. only towards Redoutable.
The men on Redoutable will only fire towards Victory, also with the big guns.

Captain Lucas’ wrote in his report:
… it proved difficult to board her because of the motion of the two vessels, and the height of the Victory’s upper tier and battery. On that I gave the order to cut the supports of the main-yard so that it might serve as a bridge.

I have to say I was very tempted to place the lower yard of Redoutable down on the two hulls. This would be a great visual link between both ships and a fantastic focal point with French climbing over Victory, more getting ready behind them on Redoutable, and British on the other side trying to repel them.

But Lucas then wrote:
At that moment, ( ), the three-decker Téméraire, ( ), came down, full sail, on our starboard side. We were immediately under the full fire of her artillery, discharged almost with muzzles touching.

And from that moment, the situation on Redoutable went downhill very fast…
So unfortunately (for me :big_grin: ), it looks like time didn’t allow the main yard to actually be cut loose and lowered. :Mad_5:

But in between these passages, Lucas also wrote:
At the same time Midshipman Yon and four seamen sprang on board the Victory by means of her anchor.

So, 5 French did succeed in crossing over to Victory, using one of her anchors as a bridge.
So this I can use with the same purpose as the yard!
The anchor can be in this position, with several men on it and large groups of men on the ships at both ends:
Image

That should make for a perfect main focal point on the ships. :woo_hoo:
Another (smaller) one will be on the quarterdeck of Victory, where Nelson is supported by his men to be carried down.

Some views from every side of the composition:
Image

Image

Image

Image

I wanted to define the composition at this stage not only for the fun of it, but also because it will help a lot in planning the rest of the build.
Now I can see which masts and spars will be damaged where, and I can build them as such (as opposed to building them complete and then ‘damaging’ them). I also know now how much masts and spars to make for wreckage in the sea, and it allowed me to determine how many boats and which types I will need to build.
Later, this mock-up will also allow me to plan the location and poses of the crew, guns and wreckage on the ships, and the battle damage to the hulls.

So if anyone sees anything that can be improved on (like the set of the sails, … ), please let me know! This is the stage where I can still change things easily…

Cheers,

Marijn


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 7:12 am 
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Wow. An ambitious plan, Marijn. I can't wait to see it realized.

Simply beautiful work to date


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 8:22 am 
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Wonderful work Marijn! :thumbs_up_1: I can hardly wait for the follow ups. :big_grin:

But, a word of caution. I was under the impression that all ship boats were unshipped before action.

And... I somehow doubt that Victory used royals in the fore and main. top sails and top gallants being more likely.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 10:56 am 
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Dan K wrote:
Wow. An ambitious plan, Marijn. I can't wait to see it realized.

Simply beautiful work to date

Yeah, what he said. Holy Cow, this is something.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2020 2:51 am 
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Many thanks guys! :smallsmile: :cool_1: :smallsmile:

Dan K wrote:
Wow. An ambitious plan, Marijn. I can't wait to see it realized.

Yep, me too! Quite a lot of work already went into it, but the masts, sails, rigging, boats, guns, wreckage, crew, and of course painting and the seascape will still provide many many hours of modelling fun! :big_grin:
It will be quite a while before it will be finished, but I don't think there is any chance I'll get bored with this project!

kurusu wrote:
But, a word of caution. I was under the impression that all ship boats were unshipped before action.


Many thanks Kurusu! That is exactly the kind of questions I need!

But regarding the boats, this eyewithness account indicates that Victory only had 2 boats unshipped, and one was 'lost' early on to be retreived intact afterwards:
‘All further hostility having, as well it might, ceased on board the Redoutable, Captain Hardy ordered two midshipmen, Messieurs David Ogilvie and Francis E. Collingwood, with the sergeant-major of Marines and eight or ten hands, to go on board the French ship, and (not to ‘take possession’ for, had that been deemed of any importance, a lieutenant would have been sent, but) to assist in putting out a fire which had just broken out afresh. This party, not being able to step on board for the reason already given, embarked from one of the Victory‘s stern-ports in the only remaining boat of the two that had been towing astern, and got to the Redoutable through one of her stern-ports. As a proof, too, that all hostility had then ceased on board the French ship, the Victory‘s people’s were well received. Their boat, we believe, was soon afterwards knocked to pieces by a shot. The other boat had been cut adrift by a shot just as the Victory was about to open her fire, and was afterwards picked up with her oars and tackle as complete as when, early in the forenoon, she had been lowered down from the quarter.’

A pity that it doesn't specify the type of boat...

There is also a written account of a crewmen of Victory who got injured by a splinter, that descibes how the shot passed through boats that were on the booms at that time. That provides an independent source that there were boats still on board.

Paintings are hard to trust. Most don't show any boats being towed, but then again these might not have been very interesting for the artist...
Paintings showing the battle on board of Victory usually do show boats on the booms though, but again how much can we trust them?

kurusu wrote:
And... I somehow doubt that Victory used royals in the fore and main. top sails and top gallants being more likely.

That's a very good point! Some paintings do show royals (including one illustration ordered by Lucas himself), but most do not.
Does anyone have anymore info on this?

Cheers,

Marijn


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2020 3:58 am 
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Was not Victory one of the slowest ships in the fleet and therefore had set probably most sails?

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2020 4:37 am 
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Thanks Maxim!

I'm not sure if she was one of the slowest, but she was certainly not the fastest indeed: Nelson had to request Téméraire to stay in her proper station behind Victory during their approach to the enemy line, because she would otherwise overtake her.

But the wind was very low at that moment, and all ships would have had most of their sails set.
It is described how the studding sails were set too. But it is also described how all of these were shot away by the time Victory broke the line of the combined fleet. I will model the remains of their booms though!


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2020 5:15 am 
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Most wonderful set-up :-)

Some remarks from my side:

- Victory was considered quite fast for her size and outran most of the other ship of lines but Temeraire :-)

- Most sails were set, even all stunsails, that were already shot off in the depicted moment. "The french spared us the work of taking them down" an original typical cool British comment :-)

- If royals were set I have no idea at the very second. But at least no main-stun´sails, as they were not issued any more at 1805. So the stun´sail yard on the main channel most possibly belonged to the fore-stun´sail.

- All the debris in the water is spread on the paintings as for artistic reasons. If debris was afloat it should have been in the stern of the respective ship. If you follow the told story of the paintings that is wonderful to look at and a good reason to do so, but historically a bit illogical.

Cheers, DAniel

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To Victory and beyond ...
viewtopic.php?f=59&t=99050&start=60

See also our german forum for the age of Sail and History:
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2020 8:00 am 
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dafi wrote:
- Victory was considered quite fast for her size and outran most of the other ship of lines but Temeraire :-)

I wondered always about the fact that Temeraire nearly overtook Victory. 2nd class ship of the line were well known to be very bad sailing ships. If this one was faster than Victory, which ship could have been slower than Victory? I assume that all the 74-gun and 64 gun-ships were faster, than are only the two other 1st class ship of lines (Britannia, Royal Sovereign) and three other 2nd class ships of the lines (Neptune, Dreadnought, Prince) left as obvious candidates. Or were the conditions different, if the wind was coming from behind?

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2020 9:08 am 
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The slowest at Trafalgar was HMS Prince, a sec. rate, that was passed by its whole division and arrived just in time, to see no fighting enemy any more :-)

Yes, the second rates were supposed to be slower as they were shorter, also with more drift leewards. But still the lines of a ship made a big difference and also if the ship had a clean bottom.

Temeraire was of the latest design, a refinement of Victory´s lines, and she had her copper redone just the year before. So it easily can be that with full sail set, she was a good competition for her elderly aunt ;-)

Much to Nelson´s frustration ...

XXXDAn

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viewtopic.php?f=59&t=99050&start=60

See also our german forum for the age of Sail and History:
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2020 10:01 am 
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Good information Marijn and Dafi. I see you both take your research seriously. :thumbs_up_1:


If we could only have photographs of Victory under sail.

But... Wait! What's this!? :big_grin:


Attachments:
HMS V 4967.jpg
HMS V 4967.jpg [ 149.29 KiB | Viewed 239 times ]
HMS V 4969.jpg
HMS V 4969.jpg [ 179.47 KiB | Viewed 239 times ]
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2020 10:02 am 
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Ok. Ok.

I'll admit. I'm mean. Sorry. :big_grin:


the truth. :heh:


Attachments:
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2020 10:11 am 
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Marijn:

Unbelievable, wonderful work!!!

May I ask how you got that beautiful subtle sea-effect on the surface of the styrofoam insulation?

Please advise.

Thanks!

Mike E.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2020 2:43 pm 
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Hi there Meister Marijn and all,

Ditto, unbelievable, wonderful work, and pure candy for the eye.

Honestly, I cannot imagine the rigging --both standing and fallen down-- taken to this level of accuracy. I have already bought three pounds of popcorn and four packs of beer to be ready for the show.

Keep them coming, and warmest regards from these cold shores,

Willie.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2020 12:30 am 
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I am a fan of accuracy as most people here, but part of me just cant wait to see this painted. I think this is a phenomenal undertaking and it is coming out breathtakingly beautiful - floating debris or not. :big_grin:

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2020 4:51 am 
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Great discussions gentlemen! Thank you very much!!! :thumbs_up_1:

dafi wrote:
- If royals were set I have no idea at the very second. But at least no main-stun´sails, as they were not issued any more at 1805. So the stun´sail yard on the main channel most possibly belonged to the fore-stun´sail.

Many thanks for your knowledgeable insights Daniel, and not only this one!
This I was not aware of, thanks! But just so I understand correctly: she wouldn't have had any stunsails at all on the main mast? Or were they only omitted from the main course but she still did have them on the main topsail?

dafi wrote:
- All the debris in the water is spread on the paintings as for artistic reasons. If debris was afloat it should have been in the stern of the respective ship. If you follow the told story of the paintings that is wonderful to look at and a good reason to do so, but historically a bit illogical.

You are 100% correct!
Well, one could argue that debris could float a bit in different directions than the ships, especially with the light winds and heavy swell from the upcoming storm, combined with the slow but chaotic movements of the ships. But still...

But, here the debris clearly does not belong to Redoutable or Victory, as they both still have all of their fighting tops (even if Vic's mizzen top is lying over her traffrail...). The debris is also quite removed from both ships. Since the timeframe depicted is before the second British ship arrived at the scene (Téméraire), the debris can only originate from the Lee column. I could argue that this is not impossible, as more than 45 minutes had passed between Royal Sovereign breaking the line and my scene, and the ships were less than half a mile apart (according to the plans in Voices from the battle of Trafalgar). But in reality, I agree that this is not very likely...

But I'm including the debris for the same reasons as the paintings indeed: for artistic reasons. These can be split in two purposes:
- purely aesthetic: as a foreground it frames the scene and adds to its balance and dynamics, and it also provides variation to the scene, all adding to the overall visual interest.
- telling the story. The debris might not be correct with the exact timeframe and/or location, but it helps to clarify that the scene depicts a large battle with many ships and not a skirmish of only 2 ships. It also emphasis the fierceness of the battle and the level of destruction. And it shows aspects of the battle not visible on the ships: sailors in the water and boats in action rescuing them, both friend and foe. I might even put Jeanette in there somewhere. :big_grin:

I do take research seriously, but in the end it has to serve the diorama and not the other way round, at least for me personally. A diorama is to me a visual medium intended to tell a story. And I'm a firm believer in the adage that 'creators are allowed to be inaccurate if the inaccuracy serves the story better than the accuracy would.'

For the same reason, I will also show several moments in time combined: the moment just after Nelson fell while Vic's weather decks were still full of fighting men, and the moment just before Téméraire arrived and Redoutable's men were almost successful in boarding Victory. If I add Jeanette, even though she will just be a tiny detail, she would represent yet another moment.

That said, the more I can get accurate, the better! I want to be inaccurate as little as possible, and if so only consciencely and with purpose and intent, not out of lazyness or ignorance! :big_grin:
So please don't feel like I wouldn't take your input seriously; because I really do! And I love it! Even if I don't follow everything, it always makes me think things out better. :thumbs_up_1:

@ Kurusu: hahaha!!! :big_grin:
Now, that was an ambitious model...

Mike E. wrote:
May I ask how you got that beautiful subtle sea-effect on the surface of the styrofoam insulation?

Please advise.

For this, I used a very specialist tool: :big_grin:
Image

I simply pressed the waves in the styrofoam with it.
I won't be using this base for the actual water (it is only a mock-up to determine the composition), but it would be a good base for adding a sea surface texture on top. For example with Frank Spahr's technique, or Jim Baumann's watercolour paper technique. I learned it from Werner De Keersmaecker; only I think he uses a rolling pin instead?

And many thanks for the nice words everybody! :smallsmile: :cool_1: :wave_1:

Marijn


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2020 6:59 am 
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You got me perfectly right Marijn, the remark was in no way to tell you off :-)

Even the great picture from Turner cumulates several aspects and timelines of the battle - that is what creates its dynamics!

There are only the 2 stunsails of the mainsail not being used as they tended to shadow the other sails.This means the yard on the main channel belonged to the fore stun´sail, no lower yard for the missing main-stun´sail, but the yard on the main-yard was there for the main-topsail-stun´sails was still needed :-) This said I confirm that in my understanding the other main mast stun´sails were set :-)

All the best, DAniel

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To Victory and beyond ...
viewtopic.php?f=59&t=99050&start=60

See also our german forum for the age of Sail and History:
http://www.segelschiffsmodellbau.com


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2020 7:40 am 
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Impressive-- both the conceptualisation and the researching back and forth

as well as the actual model execution!


its all VERY GOOD STUFF--and decent sourcing of infos.

I am really enjoying following both the build and its research conclusions !!

exciting and dynamic stuff!

I am following, modelling sailing ships at sea is a whole different game to making static models..

==============================================================

I see parallels here in the pros / cons and counter arguments;

==> some readers may recall the back and forth over whether the 2 x lateen sails
on my Mary Rose build could/ should / should not have been ahead of the shrouds down wind etc etc
its was with the inoput and idea bouncing from my e-friends here at MW.com that assisted greatly!


for those interested
from here onwards a few postings back and forth!

viewtopic.php?f=60&t=163736&hilit=hms+mary+rose&start=60#p712155

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2020 12:33 pm 
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dafi wrote:
You got me perfectly right Marijn, the remark was in no way to tell you off :-)

I know :thumbs_up_1: , but I can be overly careful with these things sometimes... Written text in a foreign language can so easily be misunderstood! :big_grin:

dafi wrote:
There are only the 2 stunsails of the mainsail not being used as they tended to shadow the other sails.This means the yard on the main channel belonged to the fore stun´sail, no lower yard for the missing main-stun´sail, but the yard on the main-yard was there for the main-topsail-stun´sails was still needed :-) This said I confirm that in my understanding the other main mast stun´sails were set :-)

Many thanks Daniel! That's great info! This means I can add the irons and some remains of the stunsail booms on the main yard (and above), but not at the main channels.

Many thanks Jim!
Yes, I remember that discussion (I followed that build with great interest!), and it was a pleasure to read it again now. :thumbs_up_1:
This kind of interaction is what makes this place so great! I'm (almost) the only one in my club building ships, so it so so valuable to be able to be in touch with people from all over the world. Especially if they are as knowledgable, generous and kind as you folks! :thumbs_up_1:

Cheers,

Marijn


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