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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2021 8:39 am 
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I have no idea why I keep doing this to myself :bash_2:

After completing my Taiho I wanted to build a British armoured carrier. I have not had one in my collection for many years and new kit releases have finally circled back to these neglected subjects. I got Aoshima's new 1/700 Victorious looking for a relaxing build, avoiding the hassle of Flyhawk. But while I was waiting for postage, my mind recalled a crazy scheme I had hatched before and buried. I couldn't just be happy with an OOB build, I had to have something different, something more.

I gathered some research and the final pieces fell into place: what I wanted was possible, but it would be very difficult. Last night, in a moment of madness I decided to cut plastic and make the decision irreversible before I changed my mind. I blame the Royal Navy, RAF and FAA. They too wanted an armoured carrier that was "more", and as they did, so I will try to cut it up and put it back together. 6 feet taller at the flight deck, 2.5mm in scale, and world of pain rearranging the other details to fit.

The endgame: Indomitable.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2021 8:39 pm 
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Quote:
I have no idea why I keep doing this to myself


Self-destructive, masochistic tendencies usually indicate advanced AMS. You're a goner.

It's a great project. I will follow with interest.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2021 5:58 am 
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AMS gives the right results in the hands of the true modellers so I'm looking forward to your build.
Being totally spoilt by Mike Bartel I have put my armoured carriers away for a while but if you do have any questions feel free to ask them and I can dig out my own sketches of Indomitable.
Dan K wrote:
Quote:
I have no idea why I keep doing this to myself


Self-destructive, masochistic tendencies usually indicate advanced AMS. You're a goner.

It's a great project. I will follow with interest.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2021 2:04 pm 
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Thank you for your interest gents, I will post some sketches of my plan tomorrow

Pieter wrote:
but if you do have any questions feel free to ask them and I can dig out my own sketches of Indomitable.


I am aiming for an early 1942 (Eastern Fleet - Indian Ocean Raid) fit. I may have more questions, but the main thing eluding me at the moment is the extent of the stern round-down of the flight deck. Was Indomitable completed with less than the first 3?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2021 2:33 pm 
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Less round down than the first three. Both the low quality scans of the NMM plans doing the rounds on the internet and the plans on the armoured carriers website point to a round down that is shallower and is already horizontal above the first quarterdeck stanchions. Also looks like she was finished with 20mm platforms aft shortly after commissioning.
Vlad wrote:

Was Indomitable completed with less than the first 3?


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 7:54 am 
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So, let's start at the bow. The following is a drawing of Indomitable (damage report sketch from the Armoured Carriers website) with a drawing of Victorious (Anatomy of the ship) overlaid in red:

Image

As you can see, the hull and deck heights match up exactly up to deck "d", which is the hangar deck on Victorious but the lower gallery deck on Indomitable. The most interesting thing for me is that Indomitable retains the same number of decks. The extra height is added, roughly equally distributed, among only 2 decks - "c" and "d". The upper gallery deck on both ships is the same height if measuring down from the flight deck. The effect of this is to move the openings of the bow anchor handling area up by 3 feet while the flight deck itself moves up 6 feet.

In my first picure, I am cutting just below deck "b", to increase the height of deck "c". I will make nother cut just below deck "c", adding the required height there too. This also splits the hull bow flare up into even sections, which will make it easier to preserve and sand down to a smooth curve after reconstruction.

Initial cut plan is below (red lines). Although the deck height changes are the same throughout, from midships aft there isn't much external that visually indicates this, so I'll save the trouble and add the extra height at the top of the hull, taking care to preserve the relative distanc below the flight deck of various tubs and sponsons.

Image

I have actually already compromised this plan and will not be making two long cuts all the way under the bridge. The thin strip of hull would be too flimsy, I will raise the height from just the lower cut and relocate details as required.

Other changes that will be required include:

- repositioning the elevators and 4.5" gun sponsons - at both ends of the ship, these are moved towards midships
- extend the open quarterdeck
- blank off any hull openings that are no longer required
- lower the positions of the aft set of boat bays
- raise the crane pedestals (without raising the forward boat bays)
- flatten the stern round-down
- make 20mm tubs at the stern and on the bridge
- relocate any rows of portholes or scuttles that are now out of alignment due to the compromises I make in raising the hull


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 9:05 am 
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Since misery loves company, Vlad, here is a link from the Twitter feed of a Japanese modeler who was doing the same thing a number of months ago. He seem’s to have abandoned/shelved (?) this project for now. But if you search his Twitter feed prior to December of last year, you might find his work on this project. IIRC, he nearly finished the hull.

https://twitter.com/kawai7112016/status ... 48545?s=21

Enjoy!

Mike E.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 11:39 am 
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Some more links (but not all of them) regarding the aforementioned Indomitable conversion on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/kawai7112016/status ... 42657?s=20

https://twitter.com/kawai7112016/status ... 57861?s=20

https://twitter.com/kawai7112016/status ... 30434?s=20

https://twitter.com/kawai7112016/status ... 50021?s=20

https://twitter.com/kawai7112016/status ... 32449?s=20

https://twitter.com/kawai7112016/status ... 10947?s=20

https://twitter.com/kawai7112016/status ... 71009?s=20

https://twitter.com/kawai7112016/status ... 73317?s=20

https://twitter.com/kawai7112016/status ... 17762?s=20

https://twitter.com/kawai7112016/status ... 06336?s=20

https://twitter.com/kawai7112016/status ... 20321?s=20

https://twitter.com/kawai7112016/status ... 67299?s=20

https://twitter.com/kawai7112016/status ... 55074?s=20

The first entry on this build log was apparently on June 1, 2020, here:

https://twitter.com/kawai7112016/status ... 26178?s=20

To view the entire build log, got to this guy's twitter feed at: https://twitter.com/kawai7112016 Then select "Media", and scroll down to the June 2020 timeline. There are more entries there. I think the plans are from John Roberts, British Warships of the Second World War--and work forward to the end of December, when I think he paused the project:

https://twitter.com/kawai7112016/status ... 95200?s=20

https://twitter.com/kawai7112016/status ... 46241?s=20

https://twitter.com/kawai7112016/status ... 07296?s=20

https://twitter.com/kawai7112016/status ... 99553?s=20

https://twitter.com/kawai7112016/status ... 78240?s=20

https://twitter.com/kawai7112016/status ... 82208?s=20

https://twitter.com/kawai7112016/status ... 03649?s=20

https://twitter.com/kawai7112016/status ... 21920?s=20

https://twitter.com/kawai7112016/status ... 59584?s=20

https://twitter.com/kawai7112016/status ... 46816?s=20

https://twitter.com/kawai7112016/status ... 29666?s=20

https://twitter.com/kawai7112016/status ... 56705?s=20

https://twitter.com/kawai7112016/status ... 07138?s=20

https://twitter.com/kawai7112016/status ... 31392?s=20

Again,these are not all the entries, just a sampling.

HTH!

Enjoy!

Mike E.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:17 pm 
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Assume you saw these plans?

https://www.armouredcarriers.com/hms-in ... implacable

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/cont ... rmat=2500w

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/cont ... rmat=2500w

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/cont ... rmat=2500w

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/cont ... rmat=2500w

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/cont ... rmat=2500w

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/cont ... rmat=2500w

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/cont ... rmat=1500w

HTH,

Mike E.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 2:23 pm 
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Thanks Mike, that's very helpful with a lot of good info and ideas. And I'm glad to know I'm not the only crazy one :heh: It's a shame he never finished it, he did the hard part and it looks great. Although I don't agree 100% with the way he has done some things, time will tell if I'm in any position to judge.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 4:08 pm 
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The japanese modeller with the twitter feed is not using plans from John Roberts but the aforementioned low quality drawings from the NMM. His results look very nice indeed. Implacable and Indefatigable were built on a different, larger, design.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2021 5:48 am 
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Well, I have not been idle!

Disclaimer: this is getting very ugly before it hopefully gets prettier again.

Hull de-construction is mostly complete, just a few more bits to split and a lot of cleanup. I'll move on to the flight deck next, and probably reconstruct that first since the alignment of several major hull components depends on it. My aim is to build the ship from the bottom up and top down simultaneously, then make any necessary adjustments as the bits meet in the middle.

Image


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2021 10:35 am 
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Hello

My drawing can be interesting for you. Send me a PM for the full size file.

Regards


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2021 4:20 pm 
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Fantastic, thank you! I already spotted a few small detail differences I missed earlier. The size is fine for me, the red/blue is the most useful and is pretty big already.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2021 4:44 pm 
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Vlad wrote:
Disclaimer: this is getting very ugly before it hopefully gets prettier again.
Image

That's some crazy modelling operation going on here, i can smell the enormous amount of putty already XD
Now i really look forward to the day she gets to be pretty again!


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 2021 5:52 am 
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Vlad wrote:
Fantastic, thank you! I already spotted a few small detail differences I missed earlier. The size is fine for me, the red/blue is the most useful and is pretty big already.

Thanks


My sources are:
- Victorious (Ross Watson)
- Aircraft Carrier Victorious (David Hobbs)
- Low resolution plans of the RGM (https://collections.rmg.co.uk/collectio ... 58385.html)
- https://www.armouredcarriers.com/
- Photos of the FAA museum model (I have many from different sites)
- Indomitable pictures (unfortunately, I have not many good pictures)

Some details are extrapolations from the Illustrious class.

This drawing is in constant revision, as it must be part of a book in development. If you see any details that are incorrect, please do not hesitate to tell me. I am interested in improving the drawing.

Regards


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 2021 8:55 am 
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I'm curious how the extra top weight affected stability. It seems that the draft didn't really change at all.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 2021 9:13 am 
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Interesting project, and a brave start! :thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1:


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 2021 9:56 am 
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Dan K wrote:
I'm curious how the extra top weight affected stability. It seems that the draft didn't really change at all.

According to my sources, Indomitable was a few lighter than her semi twins.

High weight was compensated, reducing the area of the deck armour and the thick of the hangar armour.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 2021 2:15 pm 
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Dan K wrote:
I'm curious how the extra top weight affected stability. It seems that the draft didn't really change at all.


As was said, they reduced the armour. That's why the elevators are moved inwards from bow/stern, the hangar is shorter.


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