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SS Sagamore 1893 whaleback 1/700 scratch-build http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=378962	Page 1 of 4

Author:	JIM BAUMANN [ Fri Aug 04, 2023 2:50 pm ]
Post subject:	SS Sagamore 1893 whaleback 1/700 scratch-build
Good Day all fellow modelshippers! after the satisfactory completion of the 1/700 Lorna Doone Onwards...! ==> a New Month ( August 2023)... and a new ship model project " I owe it all to Gordon Brookes " because ...back in 2010...at Telford Scaleworld... was the first time I learnt that the wonderfully unique and weird looking whaleback freighters were not confine to the Great Lakes of the USA.... ( whalebacks are a fascinating episode in ship design read here;link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whaleback Gordon not only enlightened me about the ( sole ) English built whaleback... but illustrated it most effectively with an amazing scratch build in 1/96 scale of the drydock with the SS Sagamore sitting within ! he also supplied me with some photo and drawings, but mostly... he inspired me! Below find some images of this very fine diorama. Tragically it was irretrievably damaged by water (!) and is no longer extant feast your eyes gentlemen Attachment: GB sagamore 01.jpg [ 98.25 KiB \| Viewed 2855 times ] Attachment: GB sagamore 02.jpg.jpg [ 79.9 KiB \| Viewed 2855 times ] Attachment: GB sagamore 03.jpg [ 101.5 KiB \| Viewed 2855 times ] Attachment: GB sagamore 04.jpg.jpg [ 92.36 KiB \| Viewed 2855 times ] Attachment: GB sagamore 05.jpg.jpg [ 93.53 KiB \| Viewed 2855 times ] Attachment: GB sagamore 06.jpg.jpg [ 103.35 KiB \| Viewed 2855 times ] Now.... for me 1/96 is rather too large..(!) and anyway-- I like making things hard by making them very small we have made progress already... more of that shortly!-- JimB

Author:	Royaloakmin [ Fri Aug 04, 2023 6:47 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: SS Sagamore 1893 whaleback 1/700 scratc-hbuild
Attachment: IMG_4899.jpeg [ 2.67 MiB \| Viewed 2839 times ] Congratulations on such a great choice of subject. I scratch built Frank Rockefeller in 1:200 scale, I’m sure your Sagamore will be far better! I don’t know why the image posted upside down.

Author:	Neptune [ Sun Aug 06, 2023 2:10 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: SS Sagamore 1893 whaleback 1/700 scratc-hbuild
Interesting subject. Never heard of those whalebacks. Thanks for teaching us something new! And a full scratchbuild, not starting from a kit... Is that a first for you? In any case good look and I'm looking forward to updates

Author:	JIM BAUMANN [ Mon Aug 07, 2023 3:49 pm ]
Post subject:	SS Sagamore 1893 whaleback 1/700 scratch-build
@ RoyalOakmin looks a fine model to me! I am guessing she is built of card? 1/200.... huge! @ Neptune Not my first scratch-build... have a read here viewtopic.php?f=59&t=154091&hilit=vulkan&start=80#p937714 A neat and concise round up of the history of the ship, worthey of a quick read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Sagamore_(1893) The builders ( half ) model of Sagamore still exists-- Attachment: SAG LIV MOD 1.JPG [ 208.63 KiB \| Viewed 2705 times ] and Gordon Brookes was able to produce a decent side-elevation GA drawing;- which correlates well with the images available in 2009 and some additional images that I have found since below some images which show the vessel fully laden. ( almost awash !-hence 'whaleback' ) Attachment: Liv Maritime SAG 2. small.jpg [ 1.49 MiB \| Viewed 2705 times ] riding high partially laden Attachment: Liv maritime SAG 1 small.jpg [ 1.31 MiB \| Viewed 2705 times ] and 2 images of her riding empty, along side Attachment: 3J15q1Sje1cjEmD6.jpg [ 265.67 KiB \| Viewed 2705 times ] and under way from astern Attachment: Solideo 300dpi jpeg.JPG [ 170.44 KiB \| Viewed 2705 times ] The 'length' is quoted in most sources as 311 feet... but this needs caution as the Builders model specifies the length as 312 feet BETWEEN PERPENDICULARS ( [i]not length overall)[/i] Attachment: SAG LIV MOD 3.JPG [ 217.04 KiB \| Viewed 2705 times ] Attachment: Loa vLBP.jpg [ 669.51 KiB \| Viewed 2705 times ] Attachment: IMG_loa-lbp.jpg [ 609.69 KiB \| Viewed 2705 times ] this gives a length over all as 322.67 feet ===================================================================================== In 1/700 she is not a large ship, ==> I carved the hull in 150 year old Australian Jarrah hardwood floorboard ( from a demolished/ salvaged British army barrack room floor,--I bought 4 x 5 ft lengths 25 years ago...) My piece of Jarrah wood is very hard, dense and well seasoned ( 150 years! ) I roughed out the shape on my belt-sander -as the wood is so hard and quickly blunts normal hand-tools-- and I like to get things moving Using the cross section lines made some scaled to 1/700 card templates to check the sections- the middle section is parallel and unusually--completely flat devoid of any sheer ( deckspring) Attachment: whaleback sections.jpg [ 126.52 KiB \| Viewed 2705 times ]

Author:	JIM BAUMANN [ Mon Aug 07, 2023 4:32 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: SS Sagamore 1893 whaleback 1/700 scratch-build
and now onto something tangible ! Attachment: P1010872.jpg [ 729.89 KiB \| Viewed 2697 times ] Attachment: P1010870.jpg [ 1.12 MiB \| Viewed 2697 times ] Attachment: P1010869.jpg [ 914.71 KiB \| Viewed 2697 times ] Attachment: P1010877.jpg [ 1.21 MiB \| Viewed 2697 times ] Attachment: P1010880.jpg [ 661.15 KiB \| Viewed 2697 times ] Attachment: P1010881.jpg [ 825.01 KiB \| Viewed 2697 times ] Attachment: P1010884.jpg [ 924.31 KiB \| Viewed 2697 times ] Attachment: P1010892.JPG [ 1.14 MiB \| Viewed 2697 times ]

Author:

JIM BAUMANN [ Mon Aug 07, 2023 5:19 pm ]

Post subject:

Re: SS Sagamore 1893 whaleback 1/700 scratch-build

in the image below we see the ships superstructure quite clearly while the ship is still in construction

The uprights are actually cowl vent shafts as well as acting as supports for the flying decks

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having established the hole centres for the cowl vents/ superstructure tubes
using then afore pictured tape lines( a repeatable means of spacing)
which can by eye be easily checked for right angles fore-and-aft as well as athwartships to get
them all in-square relative to the ships centre line and each other.

I needed to transfer these hole-centre marks to the decking pieces

I used translucent scotch 'magic' adhesive tape -which does not stretch or distort
to pin prick the holes through

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Transferring these holes -- to allow some adjustment -I cut the holes as V-shaped notches
which can be easily elongated if / when needed

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separating the two stuck-together decks into two from the very high grab double-sided tape
was a game of nerves so as not to bend or warp the decks. :eyes_spinning:

.( which will now have the edges thinned by paring towards the inboard to reduce the perceived EDGE heftiness...)

for some light relief I continued to work on the stern

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which 'kinda resembles it and scales out

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The distinct pattern of the longitudinal plating strakes was reduced a little,
so as to not appear ' too busy' in this small scale

I tried using the Nail foil tape I had used very successfully on the Normandie...
but being metallic foil it was unhappy conforming to the very defined 3D curves.

I went back to tried-and-tested vinyl tape,
using the extreme contrast of white on black
to enable me to spot irregularities in the edges

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It will look muuuuuch more subtle when painted one colour! :heh:

The vexed question I am faced with....

do I make /press/cut an impression of the vertical plating lines...

or not..?

Is less.... actually more in this scale...==> or is more... just more..?

I am away on a trip for 1 week and will--intermittently--ponder this question

anyone--any thoughts?

see below;

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Author:	marijn van gils [ Tue Aug 08, 2023 2:47 am ]
Post subject:	Re: SS Sagamore 1893 whaleback 1/700 scratch-build
I was of course hoping for Bretagne , but this is a wonderful subject too, and I'm sure another most educational thread! In fact, I'm already learning from the first posts. As for the vertical plate seams: that is of course mostly a personal choice. I usually don't like the look if they are equally visible as the horizontal seams (excel-sheet look). But they can add some nice detail and variation to a hull. So the key is to keep it subtle. Personally, I prefer to paint them. That way, I can control how visible they are (dark/light, thick/thin) and I can also make them extra subtle by adding them only partially: sometimes a complete seam, sometimes only partly, and sometimes not at all. The latter helps a lot to avoid the excel-sheet look. I adapted that from how you (and others) would sometimes use a regular pencil to draw plate seams on a hull. It is basically the same technique, but paint allows me much more flexibility. But if you can find a way to physically indent/scribe/... them in a way that is subtle enough, that can of course work too. I'm looking forward to see what you'll come up with!

Author:	Pieter [ Tue Aug 08, 2023 3:00 am ]
Post subject:	Re: SS Sagamore 1893 whaleback 1/700 scratch-build
Very nice hull. Makes one wonder if Sagamore ever met HMS Polyphemus. About the verticals, as you do not use an airbrush I think the small differences in tone caused by the brush strokes shuld be enough to suggest the different plates.

Author:	SG1 [ Thu Aug 10, 2023 2:31 am ]
Post subject:	Re: SS Sagamore 1893 whaleback 1/700 scratch-build
Excellent choice for this new project and congrats on perfect-shaping such a complicate and curvaceous hull, Jim. JIM BAUMANN wrote: The vexed question I am faced with.... Marijn had a great idea. How about incising/impressing the vertical lines with a sharp square blade? it should prove the ideal solution with the vinyl tape and perform better than actually scribing the lines. The result would be neat lines trapping a controlled paint wash with possibilities to enhance some of the lines at your will. (A feasibility study is advisable to see how the tape reacts to the blade, width of lines, burrs, control of cutting at the curving of the hull, etc). Another option would be defining a very thin line between two sections of masking tape and actually create a paint/liquid putty build-up with a brush in the gap, then remove the masking tape. the build up can be controlled sanding the bulging paint/putty line once it has cured, to the height you desire. The con of this technique is that one seldom gets very thin/even lines and in the 700th scale it could turn into a nightmare due to the extremely small scale. Third and last option i can think of is actually CA/varnish-gluing some vertical sections of 0.01 mm copper wire. The build-up is slightly more than 0.01mm, considering the glue: nearly imperceptible. The con here is dealing with the glue residuals through laborious sanding along the glued lines. Question: vinyl tape, can you suggest any brand? thickness of tape? Enjoy the holiday, SG

Author:	pascalemod [ Wed Aug 16, 2023 1:39 am ]
Post subject:	Re: SS Sagamore 1893 whaleback 1/700 scratch-build
Jim, when you do those hull plates from tape, is this the flexible type used for aircraft models masking, etc? The one that stretches? And how do you attach it - using the adhesive that comes with the tape is sufficient, or you put super glue or white glue under it? Or you put super glue over it and it.. seeps through, making it stronger?

Author:	Rui Matos [ Mon Aug 21, 2023 5:51 am ]
Post subject:	Re: SS Sagamore 1893 whaleback 1/700 scratch-build
Ahoy Jim Regarding the hull vertical plate seams... what Marijn said! After seeing the Gordon Brookes SS Sagamore dio at Telford, I was wondering when you would tackle one of these ships Following with interest. Cheers Rui

Author:	wefalck [ Tue Aug 22, 2023 12:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: SS Sagamore 1893 whaleback 1/700 scratch-build
Ooops missed the beginning ... been away (sort of) for a few weeks. Not that I like those whalebacks particularly, but looking forward to the process

Author:

JIM BAUMANN [ Mon Oct 02, 2023 1:33 pm ]

Post subject:

Re: SS Sagamore 1893 whaleback 1/700 scratch-build

one short month or so later.... :wave_1:

there has been some tangible progress.... in small bites albeit--

but I am making the methods and solutions up as I go along.... :big_grin:

I created the various turrets of ( 15 year old!) styrene tubing of various diameters
==> in the hope that it was stable and had stopped out gassing !
The oval turrets were made by compressing the in-hot-water pre-heated tubing
and then cooled in a mini-vice ( everything is mini on this ship! )

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the hatches on whalebacks --on the real ship-unlike the usual practice-
of raised coamings, timber , canvas coverings secured by battens with hammered in wooden wedges....

No Siree !
--that would interfere with clean discharge of any water on the decks....
nope - on these ' wet-deck' ships of minimal resistance-- ....
The hatches were near-Flush bolted down hatches of steelplate !!
rendering these in miniature was a potential challenge

Fortunately --some generic PE ( l'arsenal ) .....that has been resting in my stash fro many years-( it may come in in handy some day...)
was indeed dimensionally spot -on-- with a subtle bolt pattern relief etched.

This was a real relief!=> repeatable and dead identical !

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the turret decks were overhanging - of various shapes
these were filed to shape out of thin PE brass scrap

These were very hard to hold firmly without damage whilst being filed
I devised a sprung clamp via thick flat headed tweezers
... a bit gawky...-- but effective :thumbs_up_1:

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Using the first fwd and aft pairs of uprights,
the lower superstructure deck was testfitted

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then the real work began of getting the uprights perpendicular...

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The upper accommodation block was made , wrapped in white thin vinyl tape for a homogeneous surface,
fitted with a wrap of light brown decal strip and portholes as well as flush fitting doors ( dark brown decal strip)

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when the uprights had been re-re-re-re-adjusted, they were fixed with CA , the deckedegs were faced with a thin stainless steel PE strip

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and the the oversize ( latitude to adjust!!) holes by the uprights
were backfilled with white woodworking glue
( a bit like PVA, but tackier and fasterdrying ) so as to self-level...

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The superstructure block was added on the pre-painted deck
and the upright tubes trimmed off

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as a repeat of the lower deck-- the deck was edged with brass , snipped off and backfilled with white glue

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a tinned copper wire beading was added as per photos of the real ship

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The lower deck had angled diagonal braces on the underside of the deck

Tricky in these small spaces (!! ) to install these evenly, at the same angle and length
without frustration of damage.

so I resorted to a simple solution, not quite as per the real thing -- but...

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looks pretty convincing ( to my eyes....)

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so now the model is taking a bit of shape and is getting to thye fiddly parts

just how I like it!

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Author:	wefalck [ Mon Oct 02, 2023 2:27 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: SS Sagamore 1893 whaleback 1/700 scratch-build
At this stage, it looks like a Mississippi-steamer hit by a submarine For holding thin sheet(metal) for filing etc. I got myself a pair of fishbone-tweezer, ground them flat on the top (they are about 2 cm wide) and drilled holes across, so that I can lock them with a screw and a wingnut. I can only admire your courage to tackle such a fragile subject!

Author:	SG1 [ Thu Oct 05, 2023 9:34 am ]
Post subject:	Re: SS Sagamore 1893 whaleback 1/700 scratch-build
Excellent progress, it's always a pleasure to see the way you solve the puzzling scratchbuilding of the most tricky ship architectures around. Looking forward to the next lesson, Sir!

Author:	Quincy [ Sat Oct 07, 2023 7:49 am ]
Post subject:	Re: SS Sagamore 1893 whaleback 1/700 scratch-build
Love your progress Jim! Very informative and creative scratch building solutions! Great tutorial!! BobPink

Author:	marijn van gils [ Sat Oct 07, 2023 8:15 am ]
Post subject:	Re: SS Sagamore 1893 whaleback 1/700 scratch-build
Fantastic work Jim! Getting those decks level and straight takes time and care as you demonstrate so clearly, but really pays of in the end. Thanks for showing your techniques in great detail. Educational as always!

Author:	JIM BAUMANN [ Wed Oct 11, 2023 1:26 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: SS Sagamore 1893 whaleback 1/700 scratch-build
Thank you Gents for your encouraging words! small steps... It appears that the ships railings on the superstructure block had canvas dodgers on the upper level and seems to have dodgers made of boards on the lower level... Attachment: Solideo 300dpi jpeg.JPG [ 734.53 KiB \| Viewed 1971 times ] Attachment: Liv maritime SAG 1.jpg [ 1.46 MiB \| Viewed 1971 times ] I made the lower levels and installed the ' boards ' onto rails Attachment: P1020132.jpg [ 404.75 KiB \| Viewed 1971 times ] just need to add the wooden 'taff rail ... The decks for the turrets were bead edged with wire-- fiddly in situ-- but.... much easier to handle when attached to a ship!!! Attachment: P1020140.jpg [ 795.36 KiB \| Viewed 1971 times ] Attachment: P1020130.jpg [ 569.54 KiB \| Viewed 1971 times ] Attachment: P1020143.jpg [ 603.29 KiB \| Viewed 1971 times ] a brief conundrum was the ' mystery object ' in the image above and seen again here- turns out to be a cable reel with a cover on it!! Attachment: Liv maritime SAG .1.jpg [ 1.61 MiB \| Viewed 1971 times ] bigger problem is the making of the 5 x pretty massive twin cylinder steam winches these need to sit on the turrets fore and aft of side of the masts.... If I needed many more.... I would have tried to have them 3-D printed -- bu as it is only five of them ... here is the first successful winch-- Attachment: P1020144.jpg [ 616.55 KiB \| Viewed 1971 times ] on reflection -I need too enlarge the secondary drums onward to winch production ! Jim B

Author:	wefalck [ Thu Oct 12, 2023 1:35 am ]
Post subject:	Re: SS Sagamore 1893 whaleback 1/700 scratch-build
Nano-engineering ...

Author:	Iceman 29 [ Thu Oct 12, 2023 4:09 am ]
Post subject:	Re: SS Sagamore 1893 whaleback 1/700 scratch-build
My eyes hurt. Jim's world! This is a very original subject, a type of ship that I didn't know. Fascinating.

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