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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 11:30 pm 
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Last edited by threebs on Sun Nov 15, 2009 10:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:53 am 
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Excellent job so-far. What scale is?, it looks about 1:64th

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 9:54 am 
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It is 1/72. I am currently taking carving classes so I can get the decoration on the back right. The Pennsylvania had by far the most decorative stern of all American ships of the line. I hope I am up to the task. I noticed you are posting from Australia. Queensland is in Australia right? Anyway, I do business with an on line modeling store there. They put out a monthly news letter and I am the modeler of the month in their up coming December issue. Good people! Always did like the down under crowd!


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 10:56 am 
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I take it you mean the Modeler's Shipyard. Good people, I've bought quite a lot of accessories from them over the years and probably a lot more when I get back into wooden ships. I have 13 kits sitting on the 'to-do' pile and most of the are Ships of the Line.
I get their newsletter so I'll keep an eye out for your article.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 12:39 pm 
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Fine looking modelship--I love the ships of the line in the era when the stripes were straight!

excellent job! :thumbs_up_1:


JIM B

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 4:46 pm 
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I love ships from this era and this looks like a great start to an outstanding model. Please supply more information. Is this a kit or scratch build? Material of construction? What are you using for plans? Solid hull or framed?

Thanks for sharing. Please keep us updated!

Regards,
Bob


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:08 pm 
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My Pennsylvania is a scratch build, double plank on bulkhead in 1/72 scale. basswood first planking and walnut 2nd planking. I will post a few more pictures when I have the spar deck planked, and the head rails complete. This should take about 3 or 4 days. I will also try to post a decent photo of my first carving attempt. an eagle holding a laurel branch, and biting a snake with a shield to one side. Thanks for all the encouragement and kind comments. I got a set of plans from the Smithsonian Institute. They are the plans drawn by Howard Chapelle. The plans can be seen in his book "The American Sailing Navy". I got the plans for the Franklin, Delaware(North Carolina), Columbus, heck, I got all of the 74's the SI had. You can go on line to their site to order the catalog. It has all kinds of plans. Steel Navy too!


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 11:58 am 
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Just a warning about Chapelle's plans, if you aren't already aware of it. He was a prolific draftsman and performed a great service by making many plans readily available. However, he did not hesitate to fill in missing or obscure features (such as bow and stern shapes, deck layouts, and deck fittings) with his own interpretations which were frequently wrong or speculative, at best. If you are striving for ultimate accuracy, you should attempt to cross-reference everything you can. On the other hand, even the incorrect features will produce a reasonable facsimile that few people would recognize as a problem.

The classic example is the Niagara. Chapelle prepared a complete set of plans even though no original plans existed. He even acknowledged that much of his plan was purely speculative and that deck arrangements and fittings were fabricated, though typical of the times.

You might consider getting a copy of Donald Canney's "Sailing Warships of the US Navy" (Naval Institue Press). It is a scholarly study of the same subject matter and shows mostly original plans, including the Pennsylvania. It might make for an interesting comparison.

Regardless of the level of accuracy you're striving for (and it's easy to get caught up in the quest for ultimate accuracy at the expense of enjoyment and completion!), you've got a great start and I look forward to seeing more of it. Well done!

Regards,
Bob


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 10:39 pm 
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Bob: Thanks for the heads up on Chapelle's plans. Even though there are several notations on the plans of the Pennsylvania with regard to having been "copied" from drafts of when she was launched in 1837, I am going to look into the book you suggested. The deck features are are somewhat sketchy, and there are no plans showing what can be seen of the main gun deck through the large hatch opening on the spar deck. Maybe Mr. Channey's book will give me more info. This is why I put the Please reply with any info in my post title. Thanks so much.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:24 am 
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Here is a thought on the model's knee/head (the frame that supports the bowsprit). {Please say so if you do not want "critical" comments. Some people welcome them, while others are happy with what they have and only want to share their work in photos. You won't offend me if you don't want comments and I'll still greatly enjoy your work!} The original plans in Canney seem to show a much larger knee with a different shape, however, it's hard to tell from your photos since there isn't a closeup profile shot of the knee. Also, actual photos of Ohio and Vermont, as well as drawings and models in Canney seem to show a pretty standardized paint scheme for the ships of the line at that time. They all show the white gunport stripes being completely wrapped around the bow of the ship, including the knee, whereas you have the stripes wrapped but excluding the knee. Just a thought for your consideration.

Also, Canney's book shows a drawing of the deck layout of an unidentified ship of the line (not Pennsylvania) that may offer a guideline for laying out the decks if you can't find a more definitive reference. I sound like a salesman for Canney but rest assured I have no connection whatsoever with the author or the book. I simply find it to be a valuable reference that relatively few people seem to be aware of.

Regards,
Bob


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 10:07 pm 
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I have stopped construction on the bow until I get Canney's book. I hope the size and shape of the knee are not to far off (if at all). I will make changes as I can if I need to. I have posted a few close ups of the knee. I hope they are not to far off. I too have noticed the gun port stripe going all the way around. I am going to paint the changes when the head rails are done. I was installing the main head rail when I noticed that the gun port was to far to the stern. The gun port door would not be able to open the way it was. I looked at the plans more closely and found I had placed the port on the hull as it would transfer to the SPAR deck. The main gun deck, being shorter and less wide at the bow had a completely different placement. I am redoing the gun port now. I am assuming that this gun port was the main access to the head, else the crew would have to use a rope ladder to get to it from the spar deck? The carving is my first attempt. I could not get the arrows it hold in it's claw. I am thinking of thin brass rods with a drop of solder on the ends and shaped into small arrow heads.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:15 pm 
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Great work on the carving! I took a look at the drawing of the stern. There are a lot of individual carvings required. You'll be a true master by the time you're done.

The original plan shows what might be a port or hatch/door on the bow on the inside (forward) of the head rails. Hard to say from the relatively small reproduction of the plan in the book. I would assume that there must be some type of access opening rather than having to climb up and over the bow. I'm more familiar with the earlier beakhead bulkhead (flat) type bow. They had access doors, so I would assume the round bow did, also, however, I don't know for sure.

Also, all the pictures and contemporary paintings I've seen seem to show the head rails as being solid (planked) rather than as actual separate rails. The plan does show the rails but I suspect this is one of those items where the "as built" differed from the plan or, possibly, the ships of the line underwent a modification of their heads at some point early in their careers.

Are you going to include a roundhouse (latrine) in the head? Again, I know how these were fitted in the earlier bows but I'm unsure about the round bow arrangement.

Regards,
Bob


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:14 am 
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Here you can see the head I came up with, looking at photos of the North Carolina posted on this website, and drawings of that ship and the Delaware. You can sort of see that the gun port doesn't line up right for access to the head. once the main head rail is in place, it cuts right across the port and has only 18 inches (1/4"n scale) between the rail and the hull. I am moving it around 5/8" toward the beak head. This is more in line with where the plan sys it should be. I wonder if it would be pushing the envelope to far to just cut a small door somewhere near where the bowsprit enters the hull? It makes sense that there had to be some better access to the head than a little 30"X30" gun port? Murphy's law says that long after I have finished this ship, some info will show up putting paid to whatever I do! I got notification from amazon that Canney's book shipped. I should get it by the middle of the week. I have seen photos as well that show the head "planked in". I always thought this was a condition only done when spending long periods of time anchored in port to allow some privacy for the crew. I would feel uncomfortable sitting at the head for all the world to see. At sea, I imagine you would need to have the planking removed to allow the forward guns to fire.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 3:29 am 
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Good work on the carving!!!

This is a great thread, a great subject and away from the norm! :thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1:

Jim Baumann

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 1:53 pm 
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Since we're talking about the ship's head, here's an interesting photo of a round bow ship, HMS Trincomalee. Photo is during restoration. Note the planked head, floor grating, no readily apparent bow access hatch/door, and head rail construction.

Regards,
Bob

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 3:09 pm 
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If any of you noticed an unusual short strong gust of wind at about noon mountain time, that was the sigh of relief I gave when I got Canny's book and did some comparison measurements. The knee is the same size in both books. The Canney Pennsylvania only shows three head rails, where as Chapelle's drawing shows a fourth. Perhaps this is one of those liberties he took. Although, the fourth rail looks like it should be there is only as a safety rail. I was right to move the gun port, and the cat head needed to move farther forward. I will post a photo in a couple of days, and you can compare it to my earlier one. I believe I will use the deck layout as shown for the unspecified SOTH. It is so close to several other drawings of the 74's and the later large frigates as to be negligible. My carvings are proceeding apace, I should have three of four more done in a couple of days. I am enjoying Canney's book. It goes a little farther than Chapelle and is easier to reference. I do not have to jump all over the book to find what I need to know about the 74's.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 12:43 am 
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I have began construction on the bow again. I was making the bumpkins and when I was trial fitting them I noticed the latrines would not work as I had originally constructed them. I had to cut them down. I should finish the bow tomorrow and post a photo tomorrow night. I will start carving the figure head tomorrow too. It will be about one inch high and 3/4 inch thick. I can now think about planking the spar deck and adding the ladders, grating, pumps, capstan, ships wheel, (that is going to be an interesting build!), sky light, and galley stack. Oh, fun!!


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 4:20 pm 
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Finished the bow! There is more work to be done on the bowsprit, but, that should be easy. HOPE YOU LIKE WHAT i HAVE DONE SO FAR! :big_grin:
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 3:17 am 
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threebs, the bow area has come up very nicely.

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They got all excited and asked if I could drive a truck.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 8:33 am 
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Looking good!

I've never seen a railing like the upper most one. It appears to be a safety railing? If it came from the Chapelle plan, I'd be inclined to discount it. Almost all the contemporary paintings and photos of large ships of that period show the uppermost "rail" as planked in, if present. The closest I've seen to something like that upper rail is iron stanchions for lifelines around the head.

Also, the original plan shows the cathead support beam flowing into and becoming the middle head rail. This was a common feature of English and US ships of the time. Unfortunately, it's a very difficult thing to model because of the right angle curve.

You might want to consider the photo of the model on p.109 of Canney. The knee appears to extend further out, relative to the rest of the ship's length, than you have it. That was what first made me wonder, but again, I can't tell from the model's photos and you say you've compared plans. As a final check, you could take a quick measurement (stem to forward most point) of the knee in the photo, as compared to the overall length of the ship in the photo (by eyeball, it looks like around 10% or so) and then compare that to your model dimensions. If that checks out, then rest easy!

Regardless, it's looking good and I can't wait to see more. Thanks for sharing with us.

Regards,
Bob


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