The Ship Model Forum

Here is another work in progress I have. I have worked out a whole lot of the details in this project, but I would like to hear some input those on the forum might have in mind.

This idea is that of a new ASW ship. The US Navy has suffered from a mental illness of late that has resulted in LCS and DDG-1000. Since this illness has resulted in the US Congress (the bill-payers and budget authorizers) having lost all confidence in the US Navy's ability to build reasonably priced and competent ships. This has placed the US Navy in a very precarious position, one it has not faced in 100 years and possibly in its entire history. Losing confidence in Congress is a very substantial thing.

To answer this issue, one has to evaluate what missions the US Navy needs to fill that it is not already filling in adequacy. Upon such examination, those missions are: anti-submarine warfare (ASW), anti-surface warfare (ASuW), and naval surface fire support (NSFS).

Upon evaluation of parties not involved in the political turmoil of ship acquisition and pleasing of certain parties and people involved, all three of these missions can be accomplished by a single ship without major cost being involved.

The type of ship that can answer these challenges is an ASW focused ship that can also perform other low-cost missions such as ASuW. This leads to the question, what kind of ship should be used? Should we design an entirely new hull that accommodates all of these missions perfectly? The answer is: no. The Arleigh Burke-class DDG hull was a compromise ship. The Ticonderoga-class CGs were becoming too expensive to continue. As a result Aegis needed to continue on a new hull with reduced cost. So, a compromise ship was built with the target of 3/4 the cost: 3 illuminators instead of 4, 89 instead of 122 VLS tubes, and 1 instead of 2 5'/54caliber guns. This ship was the Arleigh Burke DDG-51-class.

To be perfectly honest, despite its compromise nature, this hull is quite perfect for the ASW role. There were many missions and fittings proposed for this class of ship. As can be referenced in Friedman's book US Destroyers Second edition, there are upwards of 8 different variants of the DDG-51 hull one of which is a perfect starting point for an ASW form of this hull.

The DDV-8 is an austere version of the ship. It includes Aegis, 1 SPG-62 illuminator, 2 RAM, 2 Phalanx, 1 Mk71 MCLWG, and a hanger for 2 SH-60 ASW helos and was 466' in length as opposed to the 505' of the standard DDG-51.

I would, instead take advantage of the Navy's option build that extended the ship by a maximum of 55' on top of the 505' of the original DDG-51 to a total of 560'. This would accommodate additional room forward and aft for weapons.

In this configuration, I would follow the DDV-8 design forward and have the Mk71 MCLWG and a 64-cell VLS arrangement like on the Spruance-class DDs.

Next instead of the ABM super radar of the AEGIS set up, I would have only a self defense radar arrangement similar to a modernized Spruance-class radar array consisting of:
SPS-49(v)5
TRS-3D
SPQ-9B
SPS-67 amongst others.
Of course, the ship would still maintain its C4I and other interoperability capabilities.
Amidships the ship would further address ASuW with a Harpoon battery capable of sinking two enemy warships. This would consist of 16 Harpoon missiles positioned between the main stacks on the main deck level. RCS reduction and weapon survivability barriers would be erected between the missile launchers and the main deck rail to protect the launchers from direct fire or radar illumination.
Aft of so designated area would be a hanger capable of handling 4 HH-60 ASW helicopters with internal space for maintenance and UAV support.
On the stern would be equipped the standard Navy NIXIE decoy array and the TACTAS towed sonar array. On the surface of the stern hull would be 6 antennas belonging to the Outboard electronics surveillance system. With this we can monitor any electronic transitions going on in the area. It's truly a fantastic program.

While the Arleight Burke-class hull was indeed the "great compromise hull" it still offers quite a bit of expansion. I think she is the perfect candidate for an ASW focused hull that resembles a DDH more than anything else.

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Proper Preparation Prevents Poor Performance

Hey, one at a time! Get some pics posted of your LCS first! >:(

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De quoi s'agit-il?

LOL!!! Thanks for the confidence, Timmy!!! LCS-2 is still in the mail, my main man. She will arrive shortly though, I am sure.

Also, I will be building a USS John Paul Jones for a professor of mine, the honorable James Bradford who is the foremost living authority on John Paul Jones. That build will be posted on the Works in Progress board as well and will be my first post in the Gallery.

As one might say in the US Navy: HOOYAH!!!

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Proper Preparation Prevents Poor Performance

So we are looking at a total armament of (front to back):

-1 Mk71 MCLWGM with 600 rounds
-1 64-cell VLS
-2x Mk95 illuminators (one atop the superstructure and one aft of the aft stack)
-16 Harpoons
-1 Mk110 57mm RF gun
Hanger with 4 HH-40 helicopters for ASW or SOF insertion missions
-2 Mk32 SVTT with Mk54 torpedoes
-2 Mk38 Mod2 25mm-30mm guns for close in combat

The ship would be equiped to handle itself like a Spruance, just better armed. Otherwise, she has everything else dominated: ASuW she can handel with her Mk71 8" gun and 16 Harpoons, and she is fitted to be the king of anti-submarine warfare with the SQS-53CIII and the SQS-89(v)15 ASW beater of ass ASW suite. If the situation occures to where she is called to peform NSFS duties, she would be well equiped with the Mk71 MCLWG in that she would be able to respond with 8-inch gunfire and perform counter-battery fire at any point of axis thanks to her SPQ-9B. This ASW ship would be able to perform all but AAW missions with ease.

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Proper Preparation Prevents Poor Performance

Oh boy....so you're finally starting on your DDH huh Dave? Guess I'll have to stop messing around and get mine going as well Get some drawings posted up already! I know you've been burning through napkins designing this beast January 1 I'll start with the final drawings and start cutting plastic. Can't wait to see your version sir!

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Drawing Board:
1/700 Whiff USS Leyte and escorts 1984
1/700 Whiff USN Modernized CAs 1984
1/700 Whiff ASW Showdown - FFs vs SSGN 1984

Slipway:
1/700 Whiff USN ASW Hunter Killer Group Dio 1984

Timmy, to qualify myself and to retain credibility I must make the case. There are a number of active threads in the WIFF section hosted by yours truly. All of the inputs are being taken and recorded, but I am devoting a lot of time with outside research and soon to be construction of the CSG-42.

However, to be fair I will list the other projects I have in a highly classified book of plans They are:

To Be Completed in 2011
-CGN-42
-DDH
-Modernized USS Des Moines
-Modernized USS Iowa
-Low-cost NSFS ship
-CSGN
-1980s Gearing
-LCS-2 that's worth something

Long-term possibly:
-Reduced Cost Arleigh Burke (a modernized NTU equipped instead of Aegis with different radar sets and WDS)
-Redesigned Oliver Hazard Perry-class FFG
-PC-15
-and the island of the Gerald Ford!

Now, while a number of these are active threads, my current project is the CGN-42 to be followed by the DDH. Both of these are ships that I will send up to the CNO to consider for future ship procurement.

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Proper Preparation Prevents Poor Performance

You are so kind. I bet you are going to beat me to cutting plastic. Guess what? We have a scanner at work! Oh yes. I might have to scan stuff late at night when no one is around!

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Proper Preparation Prevents Poor Performance

Oooooh covert scanning! Better grab the face paint and the black fatigues just to be safe

Just as a reminder, I'm building the high-end version of this DDH right? IE the more expensive and more equipped version. I can't quite remember but I know our designs differed when it came to high and low end versions. I'll have to dig through my notebook and find the drawings again and post them up.

Ahhh cutting plastic....the hull extension is going to be FUN! Time to buy a new tub of putty

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Drawing Board:
1/700 Whiff USS Leyte and escorts 1984
1/700 Whiff USN Modernized CAs 1984
1/700 Whiff ASW Showdown - FFs vs SSGN 1984

Slipway:
1/700 Whiff USN ASW Hunter Killer Group Dio 1984

Well, where I seem to remember us diverging in our ideas was specifically on missions for the ship to accomplish. You preferred the AAW and ASW tasked ship where as I pursued just the ASW one. You chose the lower-cost non-Aegis (NTU equiped) Burke we had discussed in other discussions (:heh: what fun times, by the way) and expanded it into a DDH equipped with between 48 and 96 VLS cells that was a multi big mission (ASW and AAW) ship, and I was pursuing something that was ASW focused. I pursued the lighter AAW package, a self defense package, because I believe honing the ASW mission was only really achievable enmass if the ship's crew was not distracted by another big, complex mission: AAW such as having Aegis or an NTU AAW system. So, in order for my ship to accomplish that, I assembled the radar suite I did.

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Proper Preparation Prevents Poor Performance

Ahhhhh yes, now I remember! Thanks for the recap. Those were fun times indeed, we closed Smokey Bones how many times?

I'm reserving the name Hayler for more reasons than one for my DDH. Who is yours going to be?

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Drawing Board:
1/700 Whiff USS Leyte and escorts 1984
1/700 Whiff USN Modernized CAs 1984
1/700 Whiff ASW Showdown - FFs vs SSGN 1984

Slipway:
1/700 Whiff USN ASW Hunter Killer Group Dio 1984

Hey, Timmy, my LCS-2 came in the main a few days ago. I have to give it to Cad-man. It's a piece of artwork. I am going to have a good time working on her.

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Proper Preparation Prevents Poor Performance

Cadman and co. weren't really involved in the 350th kit - just a bit on the 1/700. I'm sure they appreciate it anyway, though!

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De quoi s'agit-il?

I think we closed both of those down 5 times a piece! Haha. What a great time. If I come back at some point, we are going to have to do it again. For being a norther joint, damn, they have good bar b que.

Onto the DDH:

After consulting with the proper people, I have found what modifications would be needed to accommodate the weapons in the DDV8's bow arrangement: a 64-cell VLS arrangement with a Mk71 gun. The bow will have to be lengthened 12' for the 64 VLS tubes. That estimate is actually a LOT for how much space 32 VLS tubes takes up. Thirty-two VLS tubes only takes up about 8' of space, but 12 is what the authority says. The Mk71 base mount also takes up the room of 32-48 VLS tubes so an additional 18' for the gun and ready drum with magazine.

So we're looking at 30' added to the bow to accommodate 64-cells VLS and a single Mk71Mod2 MCLWG forward. This actually pushes the bow out to about where the Virginias had it...nice.

Harpoons amidships are literally plug-and-play with very minimal alteration to the structure. Mounted at deck level between the stacks, two Mk141 racks for a quad load of Harpoons would be positioned side by side firing outward with a shield just outboard of the launcher base to protect them from direct fire or radar illumination.

As the hangers are, they only need to be extended by 10' to accommodate two HH-60s nose to tail with the aft VLS arrangement removed.

The remaining 26' of the hull plug would be added to the flight deck itself. While this would not accommodate two helos operating at once, it would enlarge a rather cramped helo pad and provide a good sized staging area for launching UAVs and the inevitable SOF detachment.

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Proper Preparation Prevents Poor Performance

The thing I find really impressive is the amount of detail and thoughtfulness they incorporate into the models. This is the second "new" Dragon product I have bought, and they're just fantastic. It's like model manufacturers are finally having moderlers work for them.

On the note of LCS-2, I really look forward to modifying this baby and getting her buffed up. There are so many easy ways to beef this poor ship up. Her ball-less scrotum will all of a sudden have manhood in it.

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Proper Preparation Prevents Poor Performance

I have been working on this design for a while, and before I left the states I began to build it. There are a number of considerations to take into account with a conversion build like this such as: what kit should I use? Well, the Trumpeter kit is the only real choice. Someone needs to go find the moulds to the Panda/Dragon and destroy them with great prejudice. Then all of the existing ones need to be rounded up and systematically incinerated. That kit sucks so bad it's terrible. Then the next question is: which of the Trumpeter kits should I use? Should it be a Flight I/II or a Flight IIa? Arleigh Burke? Cole? Hopper? Lassen, etc. etc.

Well, the big factors that have to be taken into account are modern standards on these Burke ships. There have been a number of developments and practices adopted as the design has evolved that need to be included into this new design. Those include the internal IR reduction measures in the stack caps that make a smooth, flat appearance across the tops of the stacks. The next is the illuminator foundation on the top of the bridge. Unlike on the Arleigh Burke kit, it needs to extend all the way forward to the front of of the bridge roof and have angled cuts running down its forward corners. For the DDH, this is where a Mk95 ESSM illuminator and an optical sight will go. The next big thing to consider is the bridge shape itself. The Fligth IIas all have raised SPY panels aft so they can see over the helo hanger and not cook people standing on top of the hanger when the panels are radiating This results in a tall appearance on the back of the bridge structure on the Flight IIas whereas onthe Flight I and IIs the area does not raise as tall. In the case of the DDH, there will be no SPY panels, so that would suggest I get a Flight I kit. However, the DDH will have a hanger, so that would suggest a Flight IIa.

Well, there are lots more things I took into consideration, and what all of this boils down to is I need to start off with a Flight I that has the modern features to it, because of all the things that need to look right, the super structure is what would be the hardest thing to modify. I am going to be building my own hanger, because it will be different enough from the Fligth IIa hanger to where I really should just fabricate a new one. The USS Hopper or Cole would be a decent good start.

The first thing to do was to lengthen the hull, and I have some pictures of that from when I started this and a Flight III project a while ago. That was a pretty hard process to be honest. Making sure everything was square and making sure I did not sand too much off either side of the plug as I evened everything up was difficult:



Here I have already added the sonar dome (its shape modified to be a little more accurate), and the Masker bands and bildge keels have been added to the hull.



Now, these pictures are the super structure of the Flght III I was working on at the time as well and will finish this coming year. There will be a few changes made to the super structure, such as no SPY panels, and the mast will have a platform for the SPS-49, SPQ-9B, which is represented here, and a TRS-3D up on top of the mast inside the crow's nest facing aft. I will have to enlarge the crow's nest tub to be a little larger than it currently is.



These pictures also help depict how I will build the flat stack caps onto the Flight I model.



On the platforms just aft of where the SPY radar faces were, which is where some FlightIIAs have their Mk38 Mod2s, is where the RAM launchers will go on the DDH.

Anyway, the models are on their way int he mail from home, and I look forward to getting back to work.

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Proper Preparation Prevents Poor Performance

I was going through my computer some more, and I found this. This is one of the pictures I took over the reduced cost "Flight IB" Burke I have developed and was building in 1/350. This utilized a non-Aegis Weapon Direction System and radar arrays. This would save approximately $600million or more off the ship's cost.

How this applies to the DDH is that the super structure will look the same, and the center-line Harpoons may be arranged in a similar manner. If they fire criss-crossed like this, instead of the little deckhouse protruding from the back of the forward stack, the forward stack would be smoothed all the way down to the main deck allowing a completely clear field of fire. Also, if you notice there is a Mk71 Mod0 MCLWG up front. This will of course be a Mod2 with a 60caliber barrel and reduced radar cross-section gunhouse on the DDH.



Do you see ?

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Proper Preparation Prevents Poor Performance

Hey guys,

I have a question about putty. I have used some putty from Hobby Town USA before that winds up melting the plastic for some reason. I don't remember what kind it was. It was okay in small quantities, but in anything over about 1/16th of an inch thick it started to mess with the plastic.

From your experiences, what kind of putties are good for filling in recesses and making details smooth? Instead of cladding over the recessed SPY panels when I start back up on the DDH again, I was thinking about filling in the recesses with putty and sanding them smooth.

Any suggestions of brand of putty? How is Tamiya putty? Thanks, guys!

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Proper Preparation Prevents Poor Performance

I hear good things about Bondo autobody filler - the red stuff that comes in a small toothpaste-like tube. It doesn't attack plastic and feathers well. You can probably find some more suggestions in the Tips and Tricks section.

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De quoi s'agit-il?

Bondo...wow. I never considered bondo. Well, I will check it out in the Tips and Tricks. Thanks, Timmy!

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Proper Preparation Prevents Poor Performance

Dave,

Specifically, Bondo Glazing & Spot Putty. The front of the tube is red with a black semi-circle and white lettering. 4.5 OZ. It is not the two part Bondo where you have to mix in the hardner.