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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2020 6:02 am 
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Phenomenal work! She's a beautiful ship in any period, really.

I too have a bit of a soft spot for the Victorian era. It is very under-represented, and the crisper lines, stark elegance of decorations etc, really work well to my eyes. I have something planned from that era :)

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2020 8:10 am 
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Location: Stockholm, Sweden
JIM BAUMANN wrote:
very very beautifully presented!

indeed--it was a bit of a distraction from the main mission, and yet it has been instructive to you and just about everyone!

and what a project!!

I now look forward to seeing the completion of the main meal.... in due ( -decade or so ) course !
==============================================================================

PERSONALLY-- call me a heretic... :big_grin:

I actually have always liked the black and white Victorian/Edwardian version-

( also--sort of ....the " ..... conservation..... " period)

- despite the reduced rig - the no-compromise dead straight lines and stark coldness of the back and white excite me !

maybe because I am spoilt and the ship lies just down the road from me...and is very familiar,

maybe because I like the juxtaposition of the pre-and-post Dreadnoughts circling her whilst she was lying in Portsmouth Harbour...



Funny that, I also always liked the black and white version. :big_grin: The reduced Rig though always made me revert back to the original. :smallsmile:

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2020 8:54 am 
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Thank you Sirs :-):-)

And here come some more detail shots.

First the in my humble opinion most beautiful appearance of this ship :-)

The channel boards still in the lower position underneath the ports, the painted friezes and the hull paid with rosin.

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The Royal Marine still wears the uniform from about 1780, with the tricorn, the long swallow tails on the coat, the broad revers and the stockings.
The holystoning gentlemen did not wear a special uniform yet. This was the time by the way, that the holystoning of the decks became quite excessive.

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If the Victory was still carrying the original bronze guns or the newer iron cast ones in 1780 I could not yet finally judge. But to show the changes of the ship through the years I opted for the original version for this display. Other nice details are the anchor lining, the 4-piece irons with the eyebolts in between and the bolster for the long fishing davit in between the timber heads. Also a nice detail is the lanyard of the fore gunport lid that is guided elegantly up to the timberhead of the forecastle ;-)

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Based on the contemporary model from the Victory from 1765.

https://collections.rmg.co.uk/collectio ... 66473.html

XXXDAn

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To Victory and beyond ...
viewtopic.php?f=59&t=99050&start=60

See also our german forum for the age of Sail and History:
http://www.segelschiffsmodellbau.com


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2020 9:17 am 
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The most iconic appearance of the Victory is the one of Trafalgar. And this is also the most obscure one, as it lasted the shortest and was almost not documented.

Contemporary sources are very thin, as the great repair took place under pressure of time in the height of the raging war, and proper documentation did not take place or at least is not known. Quite sure is, that the channel boards were moved on top of the ports, and of course the stern was most possibly closed in.

Most actual details can be found in Turner´s sketches as he draw some scribbles after the ship came back. Nicely seen is the build barricade of the forecastle, other details like the anchor lining are more obscure and subject of interpretation and discussion. Also th be guessed are the thinner black stripes and the yellow gunport lids.

Biggest ongoing discussion is the color of the yellow. Today a light terra cotta, in contrast to the usual yellow buff as seen in contemporary paintings. The actual guess is that the yards were short on buff and stretch it with red and white witch was available. Any way my personal believe is that ships of that age - as we were before industrial RAL definitions - were much more a patchwork of different colors, just always the surprise which shade would come out of the barrel of paint. That is also the story I am telling here, the two sailors applying the shade of ochre that the ship is painted today :-)

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Our Royal Marine now wears the new uniform introduced from about 1800 onwards, with round head, no revers and no swallow tails. The other sailors wear still no uniform yet.

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Difficult to see on Turners oeuvre is the anchor lining. But still a quite too useful installation to miss it out.

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On the channel boards one can see the partner for the short fishing davit.

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For the 68 pounder carronade - taken over in 1804 from the Kent - the railing on the barricade has a hinge to protect it from the muzzle flash and to facilitate handling.

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See also our german forum for the age of Sail and History:
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 7:01 am 
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In the repair of 1814 to 1816 the Victory was fitted with the new round bow and solid hammock cases. About 1837 the Feathers of Wales were fixed on the stern, still being there today. In 1859 the ship got the last set of wooden mast, later on the steel masts from HMS Shaw. Somwhere in the 1860 the planking was removed and the new planking was flush, wales omitted. Also that time she most possibly got the stern decoration that can be seen on the early photographies.

But these were only the outer signs, on the inside the hanging magazines were already removed by 1814 and every change in duty caused bigger changes in the internal layout.

There are hundreds of pictures of the pre 1920 Victory, an appearance that lasted more than a 100 years, but still this is one is the version that is the least often build as a model ...

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The planking was flush, the rigols were straight and the ports had window frames. In the upper and lower batterie there were still some historical guns from Trafalgar on display. In the middle battery there were 7 salute guns of modern design, 4 on one side, 3 on the other. The chain boards were shortened, the number of shrouds reduced. All along the hull there were waste pipes going down. Picturesque are all the stove pipes going up :-)

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The officer is wearing a 1910 uniform with flat cap and short jacket, his camera is a contemporary Agfa-Photo-Box. The sailors have their uniforms with large hat and extra large collar, one in white, one in blue :-)

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The inspiration for this scene is the sailor from submarine C34, looking up to the chains. In those days it was quite common for a submarine to be docked alongside, as their generators supplied electricity for the older ship.

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But was this sailor from C34 seeing? Possibly something like this.

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See also our german forum for the age of Sail and History:
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 7:30 am 
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And last but not least the best known version, the ship as it stands today in Portsmouth.

Like new from the egg, no wear or tear, a nice museum ship as expected ;-)

But even though all the anachronisms and contradictions towards the few contemporary sources still an amazing artifact that allows a bit of time traveling :-)

But still I think no one today can imagine the true hardship and discomfort and dangers of those days. Physical, emotional and psychological.

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Once a death bringing fighting machine, today it is a tourist attraction. Families and playing kids instead of powder monkeys and expendables wear parts ...

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Here are some more details to enjoy.

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But even this museum ship is undergoing the flux of changes. While bringing it back to the Trafalgar condition, the color "yellow" was misinterpreted and a cadmium yellow was applied, still to be found in many kits descriptions. Once it was understood that "yellow ochre" was meant the ship was changed to the buff seen on many contemporary paintings. Sometimes the chain irons were included in the stripe scheme, sometimes they were complete black. Newest research suggests a terra cotta tone for the hull, believing that the usual yellow ochre was short in the yard and the paint was stretched with red and white.

Also the hammock netting I saw already dark and light, the name on the stern I know in 3 different versions - even though I personally strongly believe it was omitted at Trafalgar for intelligence reasons - the stern davits were fitted in the past and taken down again. And much more ...

So this means, even if one builds a model of the museums ship, one has quite well determinate, what year it is meant to represent ;-)

In this sense I might close this small side project and wish you all a happy new year! Stay healthy!!!

XXXDAn

PS: I still am waiting for those furious screams of panic once they adopt more research onto the ship in P., taking down the Feathers of Wales and the sifde davits, build the solid forecastle barricade and best of all, close the side entry port ...

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To Victory and beyond ...
viewtopic.php?f=59&t=99050&start=60

See also our german forum for the age of Sail and History:
http://www.segelschiffsmodellbau.com


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 7:54 am 
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Fantastic Daniel!
I don't think I have ever seen a better history lesson in a series of models. And there is are the technical and artistic aspects... :thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1:

I think I will still change a couple of details on my little 1805 version to follow yours... ;)


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 9:20 am 
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I once asked one of the staff onboard what plans they had for building up the forecastle barricades (Goodwin was still in charge at the time), and I got a gruff disgruntled response along the lines of not knowing anything about that!

These little slices are an absolutely wonderful way of showing the evolution of the ship over the decades/centuries. Masterful :)

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2021 1:58 pm 
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Thank you SIrs!

Happy new year!

And what better way to celebrate than with a proper demolition, something I had already planned for some time. In September 2010, I was quite happy for one more rare occasion again, to be able to glue a part coming straight from the casting branch, just as the god of molds created it, directly to the model without pimping or without any further fuss.

See here it is, the little crown ...

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... by now I'm pretty sure that was not placed there around 1805. Probably an invention of 1920, when restoring to the Trafalgar state, for lack of better knowledge at that time. As the beam is called cathead, there usually was a cat's or lion's head on it in the initial phase. At the time of the Victory's construction, however, a kind of compass rose was common, sometimes also an anchor. Since the 1765 model of the Vic shows this compass rose and also the 1805 model, which was wrongly called "Vic", had such a rose, I felt quite confident to skip my sweet little crown with a light heart.

I made a compass rose out of modeling clay, and since the dimensions were tiny and tight, I printed the outlines on baking paper and was thus able to easily form to the true dimensions and to detach the fragile structure.

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Once fit test on a replacement cathead with a specimen that proved too thick ...

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... and I bravely swung the blade.

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The new part was quickly glued in place ...

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... and still a little paint was put on it.

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And as a gif it gives a little impression of the depth effect. Enjoy :-)

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I know I've had other demolition orgies before, I just got out of practice ;-)

All the best, Daniel

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To Victory and beyond ...
viewtopic.php?f=59&t=99050&start=60

See also our german forum for the age of Sail and History:
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 4:09 pm 
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Before resuming the main trail, I had to clean and look for parts.

I was also asked how big my little one could get, and to my shame I have to confess that after more than 10 years I didn't even know....

So I put in the jib, the flying jib and the gaff boom and hung up the mainsail yard with the stun´sail spars. So the dimensions were taken: 105 cm x 52 cm x 73 cm. Good that I know now :-)

Here are some pictures of the actual state.

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But you guessed it, setting main yard was not done so quickly. 1805 was in the middle of the war and Lees describes that the lower yard slings were replaced by chains during this war periods. As I had a piece of chain of the right length, this was immediately used for this purpose. But in the process it was noticed that the two scuttles for this were still missing in the main fighting top, as was the nailing ...

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... so this was quickly done.

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Here the comparison with the fore top: brown is the kit, white the new structure, as the tops were to be built in two parts from 1802 onwards to simplify repairs.

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And then the main yard could be finally set, correctly with chain :-)

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Note the following detail: On the starboard side, the stopper cleat of the square rig is shaped like a bow, as it is on the Vic today. On the port side it is formed as a shoulder, as shown by Lees, Schrade and some contemporary models. I have not yet been able to find out which variant was used when.

As always, questions about questions.

XXXDAn

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To Victory and beyond ...
viewtopic.php?f=59&t=99050&start=60

See also our german forum for the age of Sail and History:
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 5:12 am 
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Wonderful! :thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1:

Do you plan on ever fully rigging her? That would make access below decks difficult?

Interesting to see the different cleats! I have chosen the first (bow shape) myself for now...


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:58 am 
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And in order not to frighten the suspicious and spoiled audience, we continue with another dismantling.

First, a look at the scene of crime, the middle battery deck.

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The normal tiller is located in the lower battery deck under the deck beams. The picture shows in the foreground how the rudder head protrudes into the middle battery deck, with the slot for the emergency tiller in case the lower one is damaged. Handy in times of storm and battle.

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On the Vic in P., the rudder head is covered with an 8-cornered oval cowl. So far I haven't found such a part in the contemporary records. The contemporary model of the Princess Royal and other models show a cowl that goes all the way to the rear seat under the windows.

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So snap away the current cover ...

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... and new window seats, using a figure to determine the seat height, the total height was determined by the lower edge of the window.

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The depth is based on the model of the Princess Royale. After some fiddling, the cover and the two benches were built.

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Another cutter blade was profiled to be able to score the surrounding profile ...

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... and the whole lot adjusted in place. That's when the great depth caught my eye. Even though it was certainly used for storage, it was much too deep.

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In case of battle, both the bench and the cover would have been dismantled to get to the hidden stern chasing ports. And you can see now on the gun how much space is wasted in this version with the bench.

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Here again the rudder head ...

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... with the slot for the emergency tiller. So I shorten the bench a bit in depth.

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Here the port side has already been shortened ...

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... and here the other side as well.

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And our master is having a good time :-)

Then another blade was profiled and a drawing iron made for the frame lining of the window frames.

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And this is how it looks now :-)

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XXXDAn

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To Victory and beyond ...
viewtopic.php?f=59&t=99050&start=60

See also our german forum for the age of Sail and History:
http://www.segelschiffsmodellbau.com


Last edited by dafi on Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:57 am 
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Here still on request as a supplement the hidden stern port from Goodwin's "operating manual"....

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The other day - about 8 years ago or so - I had the companionway installed next to the capstan.

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But as is so often found on English ships, there was a companionway just inside the capstan bars´ turning circle.

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But how was this companionway closed when the capstan was operated? The first thing to notice was that the already made coaming on the model was not complete. As what do you do in such a case? One swings the blade ...

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... and builds a new coaming :-)

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Of course, the sharp-eyed observer will not miss the fact that there is a small 90° twist here in coming n#1. So I had to do it again and here it is the new quadruple coaming combination, from left to right: In the first field comes the rope for the tiller cable, then the companionway, a free coaming and the enclosure of the capstan.

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Today in P. there is a grating underneath the capstan. However, since the contemporary models I know have a solid two-piece wooden plate there, I decided to use one as well. The adjacent panel I have provided with a grating, so there can be a visual and auditory contact between the decks. The companionway here is covered by simply planks. Quick and effective to set up and clear away.

Possibly the companionway could also have been covered by a grating. Therefore I covered the field in the direction of the capstan with planks.

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Or as seen on the Amazon class Frigate model in the NMM SLR0315 https://collections.rmg.co.uk/collectio ... 66276.html a double leaf flap. Very elegant solution. Closed it's good to walk on, open it also serves as a railing and doesn't need to be stowed anywhere else.

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Also the flaps can be opened when the capstans bars are fixed.

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Could this be a way of solving the mystery of how to close the companionway? ...

XXXDAn

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To Victory and beyond ...
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See also our german forum for the age of Sail and History:
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 2:26 pm 
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Seems like a tidy solution. There was obviously some method used to close off these hatches - not just for using the capstan, but in heavy weather as well.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2021 2:37 pm 
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Thank you!

Profiling the coaming: First a slight curvature analogous to the camber, and then the edges rounded.

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Still tinkered some more gratings, ...

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... and all fitted together. Here in a closed state, ...

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... and here open.

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The whole set open in situ :-)

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Here the slots in the grating for the rudder rope.

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And closed in situ.

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XXXDAn

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To Victory and beyond ...
viewtopic.php?f=59&t=99050&start=60

See also our german forum for the age of Sail and History:
http://www.segelschiffsmodellbau.com


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 9:49 am 
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Small intermezzo - gadgets

Tweezers fitted with a small angled groove, so I can hold and place my deck pillars angled and canted 45°.

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My collection of converted wooden clothespins is also growing.

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And for works within the hull, always put a cotton pad underneath and the dirt gets caught. Also no parts can escape down through companionways if sealed with cotton.

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And if you need to get things out of obscure corners, the shish kebab with double-sided tape on its tip has proven itself - gets into places that tweezers have never gone before.

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XXXDan

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To Victory and beyond ...
viewtopic.php?f=59&t=99050&start=60

See also our german forum for the age of Sail and History:
http://www.segelschiffsmodellbau.com


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:32 am 
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And here we go.

Short positional test of the guns in interaction with the capstan.

Guns run out ...

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... stowed ...

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... cleared out of the radius of the capstan bars.

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The next stages of construction will require the missing deck beams. Here is the status. The missing beams give a spaciousness and light that never existed.

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Beams pre-bent in a template. Supports prepared. Yes, you might be amazed, actually these are parts of the kit ;-)

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Because of the main mast, no deck beam can be set at this point. Therefor, two strong carling bridge the gap and also give guidance to the mast. But alas, there's my double-deck pump in the way. This mystery, the haunting specter of all plans between 1790 and 1860.***

Either the mast does not fit through ...

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... or they are too far apart.

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A quick look at the model of the Princess Royal reveals that the pump cases are built around the carlings, so one inner tube lies to the left and one to the right of the carling.

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So pump torn out, a through hole was dug into the case, carling fitted.

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A cotton pad was put as dirt trap underneath and the groove for the carling was carved.

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And done.

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XXXDAn

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To Victory and beyond ...
viewtopic.php?f=59&t=99050&start=60

See also our german forum for the age of Sail and History:
http://www.segelschiffsmodellbau.com


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 4:14 pm 
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aaaaaarrrrgggghhhhhh !! ! !!

the trouble is..... :big_grin:

I think you enjoy the challenge of working in a confined space retrospectively....

excellent solutions and reasoning!
Bravo
JB

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 7:09 am 
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I hope I can avoid this kind of tricky retrofitting as much as possible...

But still I will remember your tricks for doing it in a clean way! Very clever indeed! :thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1:


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 7:03 am 
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Thank you Jim and Marijn :-)

Sometimes I am stupid ...

I had already described the initial situation a long time ago. The bits of the kit were "a bit" strange in their shape. Thereupon I had fiddled new ones ...

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... and because I need some of them for different tasks, I casted them. A complicated mold with two-component silicone putty inlets - top tech!

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The other day, I noticed that the bits are still pretty low, even though I had my scale mate with me when I took the photos ...

... grrrrr...

Here again the summary:

Kit

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Version 1 anno 2016:

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So consulted the McKay and printed the parts in these dimensions.

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And since I want to be a model builder, i tinkered around with the printed parts, and got this :-)

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For the belaying pins I made a template to cut to length, with wire feed from the left, and catch basket underneath, goes smooth and quickly and well cut to 6 mm.

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Then a montage holder with through holes - needed print wise - taped with mirror tape to a wooden stick and filled with the cut offs.

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The mirror tape actually secures the wire pieces against falling out. After that I leveled the lengths a bit ...

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... it looks like this:

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Then prepared the pin head. White glue in cup 1, water in cup 2 and the mixture in cup 3. And for that the brush does not dry out when the pin is left to dry, it is brought to the right height with a clothes peg so that its tip is in the water.

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Then the glue is applied in several layers on both sides of the head. The thinner the glue, and the more layers there are, the more uniform the result. So do not make the first layers with a too thick glue-water mixture! And always let it dry befor the next touch up. That's why I use the white glue "express" version, so that work can proceed quickly.

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In my case it was 6 to 8 layers. When the head has the right size and form, let it dry well and paint it :-)

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Then paint the bit itself with the base color ...

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... and keep the holes open.

After that I like to put thinned ink in all the inside edges, it adds depth. Next a light wood color on all scuffed edges and finally some white brushing on all outside edges, it just always gives a good look.

Then inserted the pins, secured with white glue - which dries transparent - level the top side, bring it to a leveled length on the underneath side where necessary to adjusted the lengths and added the color.

And what used to look like this ...

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... then becomes like this. So even printed parts need a lot of love and affection from a tender modeler's hand ;-)

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XXXDAn

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To Victory and beyond ...
viewtopic.php?f=59&t=99050&start=60

See also our german forum for the age of Sail and History:
http://www.segelschiffsmodellbau.com


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