The Ship Model Forum

This isn't ship related, but maybe someone can point me in the right direction. I need to do some research for a story I'm writing. I'm looking for information on the WWI U.S. Expeditionary Forces, specifically Marine snipers. I believe that they were the first to field specifically trained snipers and during their first deployment on the front lines they were able to kill at once impossible ranges.

Any books that anyone can recommend? I saw something on this in a History Channel episode once, but can not recall the title – and I would also like to have other sources.

Thanks for any info.

-Devin

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We like our history sanitized and theme-parked and self-congratulatory, not bloody and angry and unflattering. - Jonathan Yardley

The Germans were the first to field specially trained snipers in 1914 and decimated the British officer corps through mid-1915. By late 1915 the British had trained snipers of their own. By 1916 the Germans had developed "sniper rifles" with purpose made scopes and mount, mostly by A. Jackenroll and Carl Zeiss. The rifle were specially selected Mausers from regular production. Try the book "The German Sniper from 1914 through 1945", IIRC Peter Sennich is th author. Ludwig Olsen's "Mauser Rifles" may also have weapon specific information.

"Marine Sniper, 73 Confirmed Kills" also has some good general background on USMC snipers. The US did not field "snipers" as a specially trained force until WWII and they fell out of favor after the war until well into Vietnam because it "wasn't The American Way" of waging war. During WWI there were some specially assigned marksmen in the US forces but they were mostly good old hillbilly boys that learned to shoot before they could walk. I don't remember if any our troops had scopes on their rifles but I do know it wasn't until Guadalcanal the the USMC fielded an official sniper force with purpose designed weapons (M-1903A4 with at first 1.25" 8X or 10X Unertl Target model scopes {I had one from Gudadalcanal on my long range rifle in fact} and later they also used Weaver scopes, IIRC the Weavers were 4X).

From experience, it just isn't that hard to hit a man sized target at 1000 yards in any weather you can see that far in with a 10X scope. I've done it in gale force winds and dead calm days, that used to be my favorite range for match shooting. It isn't even all that much harder to hit with good iron sights but the guy would have to built like Sgt. Schulz to see him. Snipers on the other hand are trained not just to shoot but to stalk & hide and that's what makes them truly scary.

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How do I get the pen to write here? Now my screen's all smeared with ink.........

Ron,

Thanks for the info. So, the History Channel got something wrong again, huh? Actually, it isn't important to my story that the American's are the first with long range shooting capability, just that my main character is very good at what he does.

I do seem to recall now that you mention it that it wasn't specific Marine detachments of snipers that the other Allies were impressed with, but the ability of the regular rifleman's ability to hit targets at long range. I believe Bellawood is the battle in question.

Thanks,

Devin

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We like our history sanitized and theme-parked and self-congratulatory, not bloody and angry and unflattering. - Jonathan Yardley

You're welcome Devin. Yep, the History Channel probably blew it again. Sniping has a long history, Michaelangelo supposedly used a rifle with a telescope mounted from the walls of Florence during a siege, a British "sniper" once declined to take a shot at Wahington's back because it wasn't proper to kill from behind. The British has a rifle called the "Ferguson" that was used during the 19th century for long range shooting, usually against massed targets. There are today still "rifle rails" embedded in the rocks on Sugarloaf Mountain in MD that were put there by Confederate troops to mount long range rifles on so they could interdict the roads around the mountain, both side held the mountain at various times because it was strategically placed for observation and interdicition along the most common route used to move armies across the Potomac River. Both sides in the ACW utilized special units of marksmen with special rifles for what we'd called sniping today, they were not popular units with some generals.

As I said the Germans in WWI were the first to field a purpose designed/trained system of man and rifle for sniping. Until the USMC started the Sniper School at Quantico in 1978 western armies always disbanded their sniper units after the wars, there was a stigma attached to being a sniper no matter whose side you were on. Some western forces kept individuals as snipers in peacetime but they were not "official".

The reason US rifles seems to reach out and touch someone farther was sights. The two main US rifles were the M-1903 and M-1917, also called P-17 based on the British P-14. There is an old saying- "The British design their battle rifle for war, the Germans for hunting and the Americans for target shooting." Our rifles simply had better sights. While you can used the Lee-Enfield SMLE, P-14 and 98 Mauser for target shooting you'll do much better with a P-17, M-1903, M-1903A3 (WWII simplified version of the M-1903 with more useful sights and ease of manufacture mods) or M-1 because their sights are far superior. I've used them all in cometition and of them the M-1903A3 is my favorite.

Then there's the ammunition, it's a complex subject but I'd rate it for accuracy and stopping power as:

German Type sS (7.92x57mm schweres Spitzgeschoss)
American caliber .30-1906 (.30-06)
German Type S (7.92x57mm Spitzgeschoss)
British .303
French 8mm Lebel

I've forgotten more about this subject than I know about ships.

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How do I get the pen to write here? Now my screen's all smeared with ink.........

I also meant to mention Sgt. Alvin York of WWI fame. The movie isn't bad and fairly accurate. See if you can find a bio on him. That will give you an idea how good some of the old hillbilly boys were with rifles. Remember up until WWII the US was still largely agrarian and hunting was less a leisure activity than a means to put meat on the table for a significant portion of the population. That's why we could field large numbers of trained riflemen in both World Wars, most of the boys could already shoot. In Europe hunting has been a leisure activity for the upper classes pretty much since the middle ages so they didn't have a ready pool of trained shooters.

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How do I get the pen to write here? Now my screen's all smeared with ink.........