The Ship Model Forum

Gentlemen,

I know we spoke about the Admiralty Fleet Orders & Confidential Admiralty Fleet Orders for WW2 a while back and I'm yet to look at these yet.
Though the help and photos you provided were very helpful.

A question if I may,

I'm aware the series ADM182/99-124 mainly details hull and main armament changes (WR maybe this is where your Norway 1940 question might be answered from!).

and the confidential series ADM182/125-142 has mainly the radar, AA and camouflage (incomplete!) covered for wartime.

My question Gentlemen is how detailed is this information for particularly for the later areas in the CAFO's?

If anyone could email me a photo of a page this would be the best way I can see how the detail is and can prioritise them into my research schedule

Thank you very much

WR for intelliegence it seems these will be the places to start with:-

Naval Intelligence Records
A collection of reports and papers of the Naval Intelligence Division (N.I.D.) is in ADM 223 . In addition to texts of early decrypts of German naval wireless traffic encyphered on the ENIGMA machine, there are reports and summaries, both from N.I.D. and the Operational Intelligence Centre (O.I.C.), based on this 'Special Intelligence'. These reports include: O.I.C. Daily Reports up to September 1940 (ADM 223/79-83 ) and O.I.C. Special Intelligence Summaries from 1940 onwards (ADM 223/8-24 , 43-50 , 92-101 , 170-175 , 310-314 , 321-329 ). It should be noted that selected documents relating to ENIGMA and the Battle of the Atlantic from this series have been transcribed and published in two volumes for the Navy Records Society (The Battle of the Atlantic and Signals Intelligence, ed D Syrett, Navy Records Society, 139 and 144, 1998, 2002).

See below, note high prices!
http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_ss_b/203-2419741-3979107?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=The+Battle+of+the+Atlantic+and+Signals+Intelligence&Go.x=4&Go.y=12

Other records in ADM 223 include more general daily and weekly intelligence summaries (ADM 223/146-169 , 830-834 , 852-863 ), 'operational packs' regarding particular engagements and operations (ADM 223/332-342 , 507-619 , 676-686 , 697 ), and photocopies of documents not yet transferred, but cited in the footnotes of Volume 1 of The Official History of British Intelligence in the War (ADM 223/84-86 , 107-108 , 209 , 212-214 ). DEFE 3 (Admiralty: Operational Intelligence Centre: Intelligence from Intercepted German, Italian and Japanese Radio Communications, WWII) contains the texts of enemy signals, both naval and other, decrypted by the Government Code and Cypher School. HW 1 Government Code and Cypher School: Signals Intelligence Passed to the Prime Minister, Messages and Correspondence

I've found some camouflage stuff in here also that might interest:-

ADM 212/98 Dazzle Sub-Committee of Vision Committee: progress report 1942
ADM 212/121 Notes on structional camouflage of battle class destroyers and MTB's 1942
ADM 212/122 Camouflage of merchant ships: notes on tests made at Leamington viewing tank 1942
ADM 212/123 Report on camouflage observation trials in the Scapa area 1942
ADM 212/124 Standardisation of Admiralty camouflage colours 1942
ADM 212/125 German camouflage: apparatus for measuring optical properties of sea water 1942
ADM 212/126 Uniform camouflage design: notes and correspondence 1942-44
ADM 212/127 Survey report by Lieut Pyes on light toned camouflage in North Atlantic 1943
ADM 212/128 Quantitative assessment of painted camouflage 1942-48
ADM 212/129 Camouflage of ships against land backgrounds: note on Umbrella experiment 1942-44
ADM 212/130 Camouflage colours HM Australian ships 1943
ADM 212/131 Report on trial of camouflage paint from HM Dockyard Portsmouth 1943
ADM 212/132 Correspondence, papers and photographs concerning concealment of ships at sea 1943-44
ADM 212/133 Investigations into visibility of submerged submarines 1944
ADM 212/134 German camouflage of ships: reports and photographs 1944
ADM 212/135 Notes on the effect of countershading camouflage 1944
ADM 212/136 Influence of angle of incidence of light on ships appearance 1945
ADM 212/137 American camouflage trials: notes by Director of Scientific Research 1945
ADM 212/138 Visibility of targets, effect of directional lighting 1945

Have you looked at any of the above in the 1960/70s???
Or are these titles new to you?

Another grey area I've not seen anything published on:-

ADM 212/194 Notes on 50 years of research: infra-red, 1938-1945 covering date c1971

Yes the PRO truely is a treasure trove!

It is late for me, will respond more fully tomorrow, however and briefly; remember seeing some of the camouflage files listed, in the late 1960s.
212/131, which I have not seen, may be related to the trials made on the cruiser Berwick of a dark pure blue, to test the utility of the Purkinje effect. Or; it may not.

Well today was productive, captured some very juicy damage reports on destroyers severly mauled at Dunkirk, including reports with plans done from parts of the 'as fitteds' and photographs taken of the damage in dock and detailed damage/action reports

I think I was the 1st to ever look at some of the photographs as they were still sealed when I touched them.
I also got some more submarine sinking reports.
I also went through the entire board of enquiry report for the loss of Glorious, Ardent & Acasta.
Lot's of sorting and reading to be had!
slowly slowly I'm getting my searches by ship name underway.

I didn't know until late this evening but the fella next to me in the bulk order area was viewing Queen Elizabeth's ships logs for WW1. I only could see what they were after he left!

Furthermore often when I got to the ordering pc's the previous users were often ordering up ADM files so it seems lots of guys are there at present doing naval research, from what period I have no idea though.

WR you still coming back at me with a long intelliegence/camouflage reply?

There's also all this on camouflage at the PRO and undoubtively a whole lot more!:-

ADM 1/18004 ADMIRALTY (5): Camouflage policy at home and abroad: reduction and discontinuation of static camouflage1944-1945
ADM 1/13337 FOREIGN COUNTRIES (52): Naval camouflage: literature supplied to Soviet Naval Mission, London 1943
ADM 1/11171 INVENTIONS AND SUGGESTIONS (59): Camouflage of capital ships: proposals 1941
ADM 1/11958 INVENTIONS AND SUGGESTIONS (59): Provision of camouflage and marking of Fleet Air Arm and Allied Aircraft: correspondence with Air Ministry. 1939-1942
ADM 1/12696 INVENTIONS AND SUGGESTIONS (59): Camouflage of ships by direct lighting: experimental trials 1943
ADM 1/13676 MERCHANT NAVY (64): Anti-U-boat camouflage of merchant vessels 1943
ADM 1/17004 MERCHANT NAVY (64): Camouflage of ships by painting: departmental responsibilities for merchant ship camouflage 1942-1944
ADM 1/14694 ESTIMATES AND FINANCE (69): Employment of WRNS on camouflage net making: disposal of money earned 1942-1943
ADM 1/15214 SCIENTIFIC AND CULTURAL (80): Camouflage of ships at sea, and related matters 1942-1947
ADM 1/15214 STRATEGY AND TACTICS (82): Camouflage of ships at sea, and related matters 1942-1947
ADM 1/15214 SHIPS AND VESSELS (91): Camouflage of ships at sea, and related matters 1942-1947
ADM 1/10268 STRATEGY AND TACTICS (82): Camouflage Committee papers (otherwise in HO 217) 1940
ADM 1/11728 STRATEGY AND TACTICS (82): Camouflage: reports, observations, comparative visibility, visual physiology etc. 1942
ADM 1/13444 STRATEGY AND TACTICS (82): Camouflage of landing ships and barges: standardisation 1943
ADM 1/13444 SHIPS AND VESSELS (91): Camouflage of landing ships and barges: standardisation 1943
ADM 1/16728 STRATEGY AND TACTICS (82): History of naval decoy and camouflage and its uses in a future war: organisation memorandum 1944
ADM 1/22281 ADMIRALTY (5): 'Psycho-Physiology of Camouflage and Reconnaissance (Night Vision)' by Professor K H Kekcheyev, Moscow 1942: ATR translation 248 1944
ADM 1/22281 SCIENTIFIC (90A): 'Psycho-Physiology of Camouflage and Reconnaissance (Night Vision)' by Professor K H Kekcheyev, Moscow 1942: ATR translation 248 1944
ADM 1/22224 INVENTIONS AND VISIONARY SUGGESTIONS (59): HMS AFFRAY disaster: scheme with sketch for salvage of sunken submarines; proposals for rocket shells and camouflage for submarines by F Hildreth 1941; 1951
ADM 116/4634 Camouflage of water surfaces 1941-1942
ADM 116/5026 Illumination camouflage for ships: diffused lighting, etc 1941-1944
ADM 116/5027 Illumination camouflage for ships: diffused lighting, etc 1941-1944
ADM 116/5237 Admiralty Miscellaneous Weapons Development Department: camouflage 1940-1945
ADM 199/1096 Camouflage of seagoing ships: assessment; reports on various operations, convoy attacks, patrols, etc 1940-1945
ADM 204/2537 Notes on Naval camouflage 1942
ADM 204/1569 Ultra-violet reflectivity of black camouflage of Ju88 1941
ADM 204/1615 Infra-red reflectivity of Air Ministry day camouflage paints 1941
ADM 220/531 Screening and shaping for radar camouflage 1945
ADM 220/1671 Radar camouflage 1944
ADM 277 Admiralty: Directorate of Miscellaneous Weapon Development: Reports and Papers 1940-1946
ADM 277/5 Camouflage 1940-1945
ADM 277/8 Camouflage of water surface 1940-1945
ADM 179/324 Proposal to camouflage landing craft and military vehicles for cross-Channel operation 1943
ADM 202/223 Camouflage Section 1941 Mar; 1942 Apr.-1944 Feb.

One also could have a field day in the IWM as they have lots of things donated to them like this:-

[Private Papers] 1749
Photocopy of his ms Midshipman's Journal (94pp) covering his service in the battleship HMS REVENGE, May 1940 - October 1941, and describing her employment, based on Greenock and Halifax, Nova Scotia, as an escort on North Atlantic convoys, her service in the Western Approaches including the bombardment of Cherbourg (11 October 1940), her provision of boarding parties to take over the French battleship PARIS at Devonport following the fall of France (3 July 1940) and firefighting parties during a major German air raid on Portsmouth, in which the writer was very slightly wounded (11 - 12 March 1941), as well as recording his destroyer time in HMS BUXTON based on Halifax, Nova Scotia (June - July 1941) and making useful references to camouflage schemes adopted by RN ships and the qualities of Captain (later Admiral Sir Ernest) Archer who was relieved in command of REVENGE in June 1941

A substantial amount of what is in the above listed files is encapsulated in CB 3086.

Moderator:

Please don't use the quote button WR as it makes threads unecessarly longer than they need be. One can see, as your post follows directly afterwards, that your replying to a previous post.

If your replying to a post a few higher up then please use Dear ..... etc
Many thanks

Is that an old Admiralty filing reference number? I'm unfamiliar with it.

Or is it Naval Historical?

In terms of Intelliegnce there seems much to be had in war office files

WO 208/676 Enemy Direction-Finding Intelligence Summaries 1 - 36, 38-50, 52-59, 61-64 and resumes issued by MI8 1941 Oct 26-1942 June 14

CB; stands for Confidential Book.

Which is where?

Held, in the late 1960s, in the Admiralty Library, not Naval Historical.
Also look for BRs; Bridge Restricted.
Try Current Naval Historical. Give them a quick telephone call.
Are you putting the files on disc?

I have them backed up yes, on 2 different Hard drives and DVD and also everything gets printed once formatted, but I'm not planning to start sharing what I find.

Anything outside of the PRO can wait, I'm doing one location at a time and the London ones take priority as there's more there in each one.

There are a few 'Admiralty Library's' dotted about the place, Greenwich, Dartmouth, Chatham, Plymouth, Portsmouth not looked into it in detail will cross that bridge when I need to.

On top of what we've and I've discussed with others is at Portsmouth and Gosport, there's also the World Ship Society research library/archive at Chatham, but I only think it opens 1 day a week. There will be items there including Arnold Hague's and Henry Trevor Lenton's collections I'm led to believe.