The Ship Model Forum

Publication date has been put back to January 08, as per conversation with the author at my house yesterday.
Comments pased on about visual material desired in the second destroyer volume.
Am pushing for him to DEMAND at least ONE tip-in, so as to allow two full sets of destroyer plans shown at a decent size.

Can we request a full set of E Class plans?

You may request whatever you wish.

Very well. We request a full set of E Class plans. Thank you.

I doubt very much that you will get a set for an E Class destroyer.
Something else maybe. If tip-ins are there then yes to a set of plans, if not, then no.
Question; why an E class?
The F class saw more action, than the Es.

Well yes, Es and Fs are the same, so either will do.

The point is that plans of the standard destroyers of the 1930s are poorly represented in commercial sources. The wartime programmes are covered by John Lambert, and the postwar programmes by Jecobin. But the standard destroyers are a relative black hole.

It seems that Naval Firepower by Norman Friedman has finally been published, but that an error in the ISBN will mean few copies will initially be sold.

Booksellers had listed this book with ISBN 1844157156. However, according to the publisher's own website, the book has been published with ISBN 1844157016. Indeed this latter ISBN is now in stock at Amazon UK.

Here's the funny part. All the booksellers' websites I've checked have listed both ISBNs, with the same title, but with different authors: Norman Friedman for the former, Rif Winfield for the latter.

So, if like me, you ordered the former because (a) it had the correct author, and (b) it was cheaper, then be prepared for a long wait while the booksellers sort out the confusion, if they ever do. I pointed out the problem to Amazon UK, but they did not seem to understand what I was saying.

Its available from Pen & Sword Books in the UK here http://www.pen-and-sword.co.uk/?product_id=1544

Does anybody have this book yet? If so could you please verify its ISBN.

Amazon UK have now deleted ISBN 1844157156, and they have renamed ISBN 1844157016 (978-1844157013) to "British Warships in the Age of Sail: 1714-1792". However that title was in fact published as ISBN 1844157008 (978-1844157006).

May I point out Edgar March's work British Destroyers 1892-1953, which includes an excellent--albeit, guttered across the binding--"official trace" plan of HMS Express ? Granted, it's a hard to find and costly tome, but it should not be excluded from the brief list you've indicated.

There is a website I happened upon last year that has posted a poorly scanned copy of that same plan drawing and, although it requires some touch-up and corrections due to bending at the spine of the book from which it was scanned, can be restored into a useful copy.

Fortunately, March--a very thorough and detail-oriented author--included a bar scale along the subject's length, enabling much of the missing and/or distorted image to be corrected. Most notably, his book even details the E & I types' minelaying drive and traction gear system, the best I've yet seen in any book.

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Danny DON'T "waterline"...!

Dan,

Without going too far OT, I would add that opinions are divided on March. When he's good he's very good, but having used drawings/tracings from British Destroyers for modeling in the past, I would never rely on him as the sole source.

Rick

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Black, white and buff - not grey!

I cannot comment on March's reputation, as I am not as familiar with his body of work, compared with that of other authors. Perhaps my comment that he was a very thorough and detailed author is unjustified in a broader sense; however I can say, based on what I have actually read and seen of his work thus far, my comment is accurate especially for his official plan tracings.

I also wanted to make mention of his book, as it at least partially offsets the original poster's "black hole" assertion. While I'm at it, I might point out another book--again, hard to find--about the A-I destroyers, is John English's Amazon to Ivanhoe (©1993 World Ship Society). It is not as much a technical treatise as March's book, but does contain a fold-out line drawing near the book's end, and features a good tabular reference and detailed textual history of these ships.

My har-penny's worth...

Thanks for the response Dan. As it happens I do posses March's book; two copies in fact. Oddly I cannot find the plan you refer to; there is only a sketch design of Exmouth in chapter 34. There is a nice plan of the Express of the 1896/97 programme, but not of the the 1931 programme.

While March is indeed an excellent resource on British destroyers, its plans - as in most books - generally lack hull lines. So while they are a good reference for existing models, they are of limited use in scratch building and the like.

My black hole comment was aimed at commercial model building plans. I omitted to mention the A&A plans in my original post, but they too generally cover the wartime programmes. The A&A plans of HMS Hardy are the exception that prove the rule!

This just isn't my day... I 've confused two different plan drawings, sorry! I have a number of these undergoing cleanup and adaptation to other classes, for my own purposes.

March's destroyer plan is a 1964 tracing of HMS Intrepid and the plan I have of the E-class (which I confused with March) is an adaptation of another drawing of Echo, not Express. March's minelaying equipment detail dates from 1961. Both March drawings are indeed his, each bear his signature, and are dated as described.

My apologies for the gaff.

Hi Linux

I have the book direct from the publishers and the ISBN is 978-1-84415-701-3

The book itself is excellent and will undoubtedly become the standard work on fire-control in this period.

N/B. The ISBN is in fact: ISBN-10 1591145554 - ISBN-13 9781591145554


Thank you very much for the confirmation.

Yes, Amazon UK (and others) have indeed got the title and author wrong. The worry is that ordering the correct ISBN may yield the incorrect book if the seller tries to be clever!

My copy arrived today. Just glancing, I see many photos I have not seen before.

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If an unfriendly power had attempted to impose on America the mediocre educational performance that exists today, we might well have viewed it as an act of war.

-- "A Nation at Risk" (1983)

Reading through the section on WW.I, there are some comments about how impressed the British were with the Ford Mk.1 in 1917 when the USN arrived at Scapa Flow. Evidently, they had been trying to solve the problem of what to do when the target is chasing the salvos (target inclination), and the Colonials had not only solved the problem, the made a machine that gave you the solution with a turn of the crank.

They installed a Ford Mk. 1 in HMS Cardiff in 1918, but the reports do not survive. I suspect the Ford was an improvement over a Dreyer Table in what was called "synthetic fire control", but needed much development to be useful in British service, particularly in the area of gyroscopic vertical, level and cross-level. Because the RN was at an early phase in understanding the value of these peripherals, the information which made it to Japan was similarly vacant in these things, much to the USN's benefit in WW.II.

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If an unfriendly power had attempted to impose on America the mediocre educational performance that exists today, we might well have viewed it as an act of war.

-- "A Nation at Risk" (1983)

Just some more comments. Spee's squadron firing without directors startled the commanders of the British Battlecruisers with the ability to hit at range and their use of zig-zag to confuse British solutions. The British fired slowly and deliberately according to Admiralty orders (which stood until about Jutland), and the rapid German fire caused splash from shorts and smoke to totally confuse the British gunlayers, who had to cease fire from time to time.

After Jutland, the British developed a new shell on a crash basis because it was believed no British shell was sufficient to disable a large German armored ship. This new shell went to sea in WW.II. It is hard to evaluate it's importance, because although it was immensely powerful there is probably no way to disable a well-designed modern capital ship with one or two hits.

I am excited to see how British practice (and German for that matter) influenced the other powers during and after The Great War.

I will discuss WW.I fire control next if anyone is interested.

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If an unfriendly power had attempted to impose on America the mediocre educational performance that exists today, we might well have viewed it as an act of war.

-- "A Nation at Risk" (1983)

British Warships in the Age of Sail 1714-1792: Design, Construction, Careers and Fates
Rif Winfield
Hardcover - Motorbooks International (May 2008) - 256 Pages
ISBN 1844157016 - ISBN-13 9781844157013

Naval Firepower: Battleship Guns and Gunnery in the Dreadnaught Era
Norman Friedman
Hardcover - Naval Institute Press (Jan 2008) - 256 Pages
ISBN 1591145554 - ISBN-13 9781591145554

One of the 978- numbers is the "Amazon Standard Identification Number", which is a way Amazon extends ISBN13 numbers to include non-printed material. It is really a way to lock small vendors to Amazon.

The ISBN ("International Standard Book Number") is 10 digits before 1 January 2007 (now called ISBN10) and 13 digits beginning with 978 or 979 and containing at it's end a check digit which is used to validate the integrity of the ISBN13 number. It is compatible with EAN-13 ("European Article Number"). It is an standard, uniform code described in publication ISO 2108, and administered by ISO TC 46/SC 9.

ISO is a broad, international, universally identified standards keeper, responsible for just about everything from Aircraft tyres to international time. It even manages the length of the foot and meter,

May I suggest http://gb.bookbutler.com? It is great for sorting out book ordering by the standard numbers in several countries (including Japan) and avoids all the messy proprietary numbering like ASIN from Amazon.

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If an unfriendly power had attempted to impose on America the mediocre educational performance that exists today, we might well have viewed it as an act of war.

-- "A Nation at Risk" (1983)