The Ship Model Forum

I have an HP Models S class destroyer which I want to build in 1940 configuration, but photographs at this time seem to be a bit thin on the ground. I have pictures of them as built and in the inter-war period and also when they were converted to escort specification, but none from the early war period.

The ships I am interested in are Sabre, Saladin, Sardonyx, Scimitar and Shikari in Home waters, rather than the other ones in the class which were based in the Far East

What I particularly want to know is whether they had their full set of torpedo tubes in 1940 and whether at least one of the 4” guns had been replaced by a quad 0.5” machine gun mount.

Any information gratefully received.

Thanks

Don

Looking for very early war photos is kind of hard as not a lot of photos were taken during the very early war period. These ships were not expected to be used as active destroyers at war's outbreak. But the need for as many DDs as possible changed that. The ships you mention interest in had been torpedo target ship [Sabre], torpedo school tender [Skate] ,control ship for Fleet Target Centurion [Shikari], RAF aircrew training role [Scimitar].
AT war's outbreak:
In home waters the ships Shikari and Sabre were more or less without armament
Skate fitted for mine laying
Sardonyx refitting for Far East service after her Signal School Radar Trial Ship use
Saladin refitting for the Far East
Scimitar, She was the only one carrying full destroyer armaments, thus yes to torpedoes.

Skate was said to be fitted with a quad 2 pounder and two quad 0.5 inch. in 1940 Maybe?
Shikari had her armaments remounted, and Saladin completed her Far East refit. They both joined the 16th Destroyer Flottila . Portsmouth's local DF.

Then later in 1940 the ships were converted to ASW escort vessels.

Bob B.

Many thanks for the answer Bob.

I have seen a painting of Shikari at Dunkirk, which seems to show a single 4” in A and X positions and a searchlight tower in place of the aft torpedo tubes (and more substantial than the tower originally fitted on top of the aft tubes). I think it is a fairly recent work and cannot be sure how well the artist did his research.

I think you are right that it is unlikely that the torpedo tubes were refitted to the ones previously used as training and target ships.

My intention is to show one of the S class in a diorama depicting a scene at Dunkirk, so it looks as though the safest bet may be Scimitar in more or less original fit.

I am not doubting the accuracy of your information, but can you say which sources you used? All my references are poor on the dates and details of conversions.

Cheers

Don

Scimitar is your best bet I think. And she does have the Dunkirk battle honour. There was a picture published of her as she was in April of 1939. She has no tower structure in that photo, but who knows what was added before the time of Dunkrik?
She is a pretty standard looking S-class in the 1939 photo. except she carried a derrick forward for recovering practice torpedoes. That must have been removed by war time. Wright and Logan held the copyright at the time this photo was published. They must have mounted some type of light AA by the time of Dunkrik. But at least we know Scimitar was a standard S-Class with full DD armament at war's outbreak. The only one so fitted in home waters. By Sept. 1940 she had been refitted for ASW work.



The "British Destoyers" reference book by March is one source. Two articles on the S-Class appeared in the Journal Warship as well. No. 16 and No. 37. But these offer no more information than I noted above on the ships you are interested in.

Bob B.

Has anyone checked Friedman's recent Vol 1 RN Destroyer book? I was planning to check it over the last couple of days but did not get to it. Let me know if you have not checked it and I will make a point of going through it.
George

I don't have that book yet, so by all means have a look in it.

Bob B.

I checked Friedman (British Destroyers, vol 1) there is nothing much to add to what Bob B and Don have discussed above (certainly nothing for Dunkirk). The following summarizes what may be useful for future reference.

Scimitar - pg 168 3 view drawings including cut way (I suspect as built), pg 236 small drawing, also covers Saladin, Sardonyx
Shikari, pg 248 nice photo (dated 1940) indicates that this ship was converted to the ASW version "when the war broke out". Is this the one noted by Bob B above? This is a 3/4 stern view, lots of DCs, search light in a tub at the after end of the superstructure, surrounded by water with the coast in the background.

Sabre - pg 228 text only "disarmed in 1937 as a target" pg 236 then in 1940 upgraded to ASW version (1940)

Saladin - pg 249 photo with ASW update 1943, see Scimitar entry

Shikari - pg 228 text only radio control target ship, see Scimitar above,

Best Wishes
George

See Warship number 16. This will help you.


[quote="finnfan"]I have an HP Models S class destroyer which I want to build in 1940 configuration, but photographs at this time seem to be a bit thin on the ground. I have pictures of them as built and in the inter-war period and also when they were converted to escort specification, but none from the early war period.

The ships I am interested in are Sabre, Saladin, Sardonyx, Scimitar and Shikari in Home waters, rather than the other ones in the class which were based in the Far East

What I particularly want to know is whether they had their full set of torpedo tubes in 1940 and whether at least one of the 4” guns had been replaced by a quad 0.5” machine gun mount.

Any information gratefully received.

Thanks

Don[/quote]

Thanks to Bob & George for your information . After reading the posts Ithought I really must get a copy of Edgar March's book, but when I found the prices of second hand copies I realised why I had not done it already.

I have put in a request to the Imperial War Museum to see if they have any pictures of these ships in the 1939-40 era as they have many more photos than the selection which come up on their website, but am still waiting for a reply.

There is a picture of Scimitar which I think may have been taken early in the war just after conversion for escort duties which shows a quad 0.5 on the platform bertween the funnels which used to mount a 4" gun. So, unless the IWM comes up with anything more definitive I will go with Scimitar in original spec, but with the centre gun replaced by the quad machine gun.

If you are interested I can send you copies of photos that I have that were taken during the war.
Please let me know.

Yes please!!!!

[quote="finnfan"]Yes please!!!![/quote]

Then I will need you real name and postal address.
I do not use electronic mail.

Thanks again- your help is much appreciated.

Name: Don McKeand, 27 Gardeners Close, Flitwick, Bedford, MK45 5BU

[quote="finnfan"]Thanks again- your help is much appreciated.

Name: Don McKeand, 27 Gardeners Close, Flitwick, Bedford, MK45 5BU[/quote]


You should receive something in about a week.

Dear Don,

If you like, I'll take a look in my copy of March and let you know what he has to say about them. I also have the feeling that Sardonyx was featured in one of the early copies of Warship, with drawings. I don't know the timeframe. It may also be that the Alzheimer's is beginning to kick in and I'm totally mistaken . I'll have look over the next couple of days for you.

Kind regards,

David Griffith

_________________
"For scientific leadership, give me Scott. For swift and efficient travel give me Amundsen. But when you are in a hopeless situation, when you are seeing no way out, get down on your knees and pray for Shackleton."

Thanks for the offer David. As luck has it my grandsons are staying at the moment and didn't take much persuading to visit Chatham Historic Dockyard. The World Ship Society library is located there, and I was able to look at their copy of Edgar March's book. What a splendid volume it is - it really does look as though I will have to save up for a copy. Unfortunately, although it has fine drawings of the class as built, there was not much to help with my query.

However, on leaving via the museum shop, I picked up a copy of Warship Pictorial Review, and there is a fine clear picture of Scout in the inter-war period making a courtesy visit!

All the best

Don

Thanks again to all who have helped.

Just to tie up the loose ends, I have tracked down a couple of pictures at the National Maritime Museum (422717 and 422717a) which show Scimitar in 1939 with very little change from her original appearance. The only difference I can see is that the void at the break of the forecastle has been plated in. I think that this is as near to the early 1940 appearance of an S class as I am likely to get, so Scimitar it will be!

Don