The Ship Model Forum

OK, Im jumping in with this submission. I have to wait on kits for my CSGN-138 project.

I was always fascinated with the Fletcher class. They were great little fighters. So I thought why not try to recreate that in a modern ship. I had an Academy Perry class that i never built, so it is my donor.

I'm designing this ship with anti-piracy, anti-swam attacks, fire support , anti-shipping, and anti-sub operations in mind.


Systems will be, and any suggestions willl be considered:
2 Mk-45
2 OTO 76mm
4 Oerlikon Millennium 35mm (Possible)
2 Phalanx CIWS Block 1B

Not sure on smaller Crew fired weapons, Y'all can help on that

64 Cell MK-41 VLS
Mix of ASROCK, ESSM, and TLAMS

8 × RGM-84 Harpoon missiles
2 × Mk 32 12.75 in triple torpedo tubes

Sensors and electronic warfare

SPS-49 with a leaning toward SPS-40. Not sure you would need a 440 mile 2-d air search capability with this ship
SPQ-9b
Not sure if you need directors with the SPQ-9. I need some info on that
Sonor will be the same the OHP's had minus the helo.
SLQ-32

Ok, thats what I have so far.








Most of the parts are only mocked up right now. I have a lot of filling and sanding in my future. I will probably move the Mk-141's as i dont know how the would like being that close to the funnles, and the VLS will be turned 90 degrees when finished (only sitting like that for illistratin)


So far i have learned that I'm FAR from as good as most of you guys and i hope my feable attempt is not an insult to you guys. At this point, I'm thinking of putting my CGSN-138 on hold so I can learn some skills first, so that I might be able to do it justice someday.

Anyway, I'll keep hacking at this thing and post updates when i make progress.

Thanks for looking!

Joe

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In God we trust all others we track

The Fletcher class is a culmination of destroyer design evolution of the 1930s and early 1940s. Long ranged, well armed, powerful engines, no armor, light weight. A mass produceable modern ship would be like the Perry class in size but a little longer and with a greater dead weight due to more powerful engines.

Two screws. Electric motors instead geared turbines. Auxilary motors like on the actual OHP. CODAG Two diesel alternators, One or two MT-30 gas turbines driving another alternator. A third diesel as an auxilary alternator. You'll need to make 30 knots. The hull should be made of the steel. The superstructure should have a steel citalel for the bridge and base of mast, Ladders, hatches and doors of steel, the rest should be made of hardened 7000 series wrought aluminum alloy.

A helo deck a hanger for two MH-60R and or UAV. 1 127mm/62 Mk45 Mod4, 4 of the new 57mm gun. (Its performance is similar to the Mk75 76mm OTO martella Super-rapid, jams less often, and you can carry much more amunition. (if you didn't whip out your calculator 57mm is 2.25 inchs.) AN/SPQ-9B would be an perfect radar for this ship. You may need to track several targets in a surface engagement against pirates. With AN/SPQ-9B you won't need SeaRAM, the spook-nine-b will be able to queue the standard RAM launcher to air targets. A Phalanx Block 1B would be a nice addition. Place the Phalanx away from the helo pad. A TRS-3D is nice too. A 16 cell short cell Mk41 VLS for the missiles. Quad packs of RIM-162C ESSM for the air defense. The ESSM does have an anti-surface capability. IT has a much faster reaction time than Harpoon. and can do damage to the typical enemy vessel there days. The stabilized 25mm gun is fired remotely and is much better than the manual version. Twin 0.50 M2 machine guns for covering boardings. The 57mm has been used effectivly for years by other Navys. Insouth east asia it has been used to cut pirate vessels in half. Guns look meaner than VLS launchers on a model.

The ASW system should have an active/passive sonar combination. Active isn't very useful anymore, other than to tell the enemy submarine where you are. The diesels and gas turbines can throttle back real fast and make you boat quiet fast. A towed sonar would also be a good addition. The Torpedo magazine should hold 40 Mk54/50/46 torpedos, and feed them to the MH-60R, UAV, and the ships own launchers. The old RUR-5 ASROC is gone, the verticle launch ASROC RUM-139A/B is procured by the JMSDF. The B version entered service with the Mk50 torpedo and I believe the Mk54 has been retrofit in new construction. The VL-ASROC can also upload mid course corrections to its own guidance and the torpedo up to the second before the torpedo is deployed.

Added:
With AN/SPQ-9B you can use the Mk95 illuminators for evolved sea sparrow. Apparently the SPQ-9B can detect shell splashes and correct the aim if you have the current gunfire control software. The AN/SPS-49(v)9 is in production, lightweight and (relitively) inexpensive. (and available in photoetch). I never liked the look of AN/SPS-40, AN/SPS-49 looks more like a radar should.

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║ Seasick║
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After looking at this for awhile I'm thinking I'll have to move the mk45 to the O1 level to accommodate the magazine. think i might also med to build a bigger funnel with steps on the aft side like a Burk for the other oto and ciws. I don't know though, i kind of like the long low look.....maybe terminate the aft mk45? SO MANY QUESTIONS AT THIS POINT

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In God we trust all others we track

Have you seen this drawing? It might be useful to you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:FFG-60_schematic.jpg

I like your idea here a lot! Two things I see right now I'd like to point out. If the SPS-49 is to be your primary, long range search radar then it should face forward. The funnel needs to a lot higher, especially if you want your Harpoons directly abaft it. One more thing, if this is to be a modern ship then low RCS is the name of the game, IE no right angles and no lattice masts. Lastly, not embarking a helo is one thing but not providing the capability for one to land is something you can't ignore these days. I know its been sacrificed on ships in the past but in my opinion every ship needs at least a full flight deck. TRS-3D is very nice but its short ranged! The SPS-49 would be a perfect primary air search while the TRS provides a close in 3D capability (I want to say 50nm). Just my opinions.

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Drawing Board:
1/700 Whiff USS Leyte and escorts 1984
1/700 Whiff USN Modernized CAs 1984
1/700 Whiff ASW Showdown - FFs vs SSGN 1984

Slipway:
1/700 Whiff USN ASW Hunter Killer Group Dio 1984

Couple things here, I meant to say some other things in the initial post, I had it all planned out and i completly forgot about mentioning the possible power plants. I tend to do that a lot here. It's like i get excited and spell everything wrong and dont put in half of what i was going to say....Scvheesch (<----see)

Anyway i was thinking about CODAG. Gas turbines for high speed and diesel for on station, dont know if this hull would accomidate it. I was also thinking about (here it comes, one of those "new guy ideas") diesel electric. Searching for subs on electric only power would give you one quite sub hunter, right? would this be practicle?? why not? subs do it, so why not a surface platform? Obviously, you would have to shut down a lot of equipment. would this leave the ship vulnerable? if it was operating in conjunction couldnt you use the link system so you would still have an overall tactical picture of the area?

As far as the RCS problem, Im thinking i need to make the hull wider so it can angle in toward the ship to the water line. Right now its flat as a billboard. I'm thinking this should not be to hard and im going to have to know how to do this for CSGN-138 anyway, so it will be good practice. The other added benefit to the wider hull, besides the more room aspect, is i can more easily RCS above the main deck. Im leaning towards moving the stack to just aft of the pilot house (and joind to it). This will also give me a plaec to put platforms for my radars, thus eleminatin the lattice work masts. This will give me alot of room aft. Im leaning towards a single place helo hanger and flight deck that will be at least as big as the OHP flight deck.

Ill get to work now with cardboard to see how these ideas pan out.

Thanks for all the input

Joe

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In God we trust all others we track

You had me at "Fletcher". Ah nostalgia... I like it.

If you are targeting a 'gun frigate', I can easily see that. I've often wondered what a Fletcher hull with CODAG, five Mk 45 and RAM would be like...nowadays you also need the lighter guns for swarms/CIWS.

I like about everything Seasick posted. A twin helo hangar is pretty much mandatory today. The utility the helo and UAVs bring are huge.

A concept I have been hacking out has the twin helos aft, VLS amidhips (ESSM), and two AGS lite forward. Fore/Aft/Port/Starboard are Millennium guns. Sensors would be SPS-49, TRS-3D, and SPQ-9. I envision an ASW/Escort version with one less main gun, additional VLS in its place (VLASROC) and a towed array. On the fence rather the remaining gun stays AGS lite or not. Both versoion would pack the NSM or Harpoon, hopefully in an updated version. Hmm. Maybe one Mk 71 forward with additional cells for VL ASROC or VL MLRS...

I have worked with SPS-40 and -49. -40 is a joke in comparison, and it has been out of production for years.

Looks like at least three of us are in a similar vein...

For a reference for a CODLAG power plant, check out the Type 23: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_23

OH? you were an ET? Very cool, I was a 48C tech FC. We were in CE div on Virginia with the ET's and DS's. Our 40 was perpetually not working. Funny story there, one day at quarters ( cant remember if that was what the morning meeting was called???) and a first class ET was joking around about how ET's were better than FC's. Me being pretty new to the ship and a green 3rd class says to him, you know the difference between an FC and an ET? He says what, and i point to the 48(which is spinning round) and say, "Ours go like this (Making a round and round motion with my hand)" then I point at the 40 (which is not rotating and pointing at the fantail) and say "yours go like this(and hold my hand still). Everybody started cracking up....ohhhh i had a lot of fun on the Virginia. I really miss those days.

anyway, enough nastalga...

I'll see if i can fit the double helo hanger on

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In God we trust all others we track

Nope, I retired a CTIC(SW).

I was a consumer of the data generated by 48/49/40/SPY-1/you name it. On Virginia I would have been one of those guys in OUTBOARD. I did get to go aboard Texas on her way up to her overhaul that turned into her decom, but that is my only claim to Visiting the Virginia class.

40 not working was not specific to Virginia, that was common on the platforms I was on (Kinkaid, Boutwell, Truxtun are the first that come to mind.)

We made fun of other rates as well:
What's the difference between an IS and a CT? - The IS will tell you what happened, the CT will tell you what is about to happen.
What's the difference between an AG and a CT? - A forecast from a CT is RIGHT.

OK, started to give her the RCS treatment.

i removed everything from the weatherdeck up. Starting with a clean state. real scratch buliding with card board for now. I'm going to go buy some plastic tomorrow.

so here I've made the deck about 8 feet wider on both sides



Here, i marked the center line and drew in the footing for the forward deck house.



cut pieces for deckhouse bulkheads and glued them with some temporary glue thats easy to remove



cut and glued the decks on the deck house and installed gus so i can see how it looks. The bridge will be where you see it but three decks up. On the deck house will be, besides the OTO 76 sr two millennium guns port and starboard and another CIWS.




I was thinking about crossing the harpoon launcers right forward of the bridge in homage to the USS Virginia (CGN) but the other CWIS really need to be there....darn it

Anway, more work tomorrow. Good night all

Joe

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In God we trust all others we track

Great project!

Not sure how much larger a hull you are going with, but the OHPs were overweight, and the hull mounted sonar was poor (TACTASS was great though).

I would suggest a slightly less aggressive armament:

2x 5" 62
2x 76mm or MK 110 57mm (I would give a nod to the 57mm for fleet commonality)
1x 32 cell VLS (I do not see fitting 64 cells on this hull given the weight issues)
2x SeaRAM or MK 49 RAM (I would go with the SeaRAM)
2x Rheinmetall GDM008 35mm Millenium Gun (I do not see 4 on this hull given weight issues)
2x Mk 32 torpedo tubes

This gives you small combatant with a lot of gun power, excellent close in defence suite, a modest AAW capability (ESSM & standard), and with TACTASS, an excellent ASW capability.

Now for controversy: if you go with the aft 5" battery and 76mm/57mm, you are going to push the helo hanger to the O-1/2 level which is very bad for topside weight. Putting two hangers that high is going to ensure that the ship is critically overweight.

Personally, I think helicopters are not the panacea everyone thinks, and there are so many H-60 capable flight decks in the fleet (a far different from the situation when the OHPs were introduced), why not go with a single hanger and plan on putting three MQ-8s in there?


Also, Why not SPY-1F or APAR?

Harpoon is on its way out as a surface launched weapon. The rules of engagement in the Gulf and in many of the regions where the USN has a heavy presence make using fire and forget missiles like Harpoon difficult. Firing Standard MR in anti-surface mode has proven satisfactory as the very high velocity of the missile puts sufficient kinetic energy on most surface targets and there are enough surface launched Harpoon around to be cross decks from ships returning from deployment to ships getting ready. Air launched Harpoon and its land attack cousin SLAM and its longer ranged half brother SLAM-ER are still in active service and will remain for some time. You might want to research the Mk57 VLS. Its placed inside the ship along the edge of the deck and can be spaced out rather than in one big launcher like the Mk41. Each mk 57 launcher has four cells inside. The cells are big. two RIM-66M-5 can fit in one cell, and reportedly its designed to accomidate the sucessor to Tomahawk. One of the new missiles to a cell. The details on the new missile are sketchy at best. It supposedly can dive on a target at 90 degrees at high mach. Instead of explosives the high velocity impact shatters a tungstun rods into sharp shrapnal that can cut through cinderblocks, bricks, steel walls, all the stuff you usually use o keep the big bad wolf out. I digress.

This ship is a destroyer in that it is fast. But it is the size of a frigate. The problem is that the more weapons you have on a smaller displacement the more susceptable to loss by battle damage it is. The Spruance DD-963 class for example was a very large destroyer, and was considered lightly armed. It could on the other hand absorb far more damage than any other destroyer built up to that time. The USN adopted the Bushmaster 25mm gun for units because the 0.50 caliber M2 wasn't powerful enough and the 127mm/54 Mk45 gun was too large. Only one Mk45 is needed. For pirate hunting and all the other interdiction jobs this ship would be tasked with the 76mm, 57mm, and Bushmaster 25mm types would be the most important guns. The AN/SPS-49 radar can sweep a tremendous amount of the sky fairly economicaly. The anti-missile/anti-air mission would be for ship self defense and not area defense. The TRS-3D, AN/SPQ-9B and a few Mk95 illuminators could be integrated together with the AN/SPS-49 to acquire, track, lock, and attack missiles and planes with the Evolved Sea Sparrow and/or queue the RAM system to the air target. An/SPY-1F is a little bit greedy for resources and would adversely limit the number of ships that could be built.

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║ Seasick║
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Agree, I would add the Rheinmetall GDM008 Millenium Gun to this list.


Well, APAR and the AN/SPY-1F were designed for "Frigates" and the benefits of an off the shelf integrated system like APAR (weight reduction through the reduction of multiple radars, elimination of multiple rotating devices, etc.) may be worth it in the long term. The future is clearly in phgased array panels for both search, fire control, and even communication antennas.

ARGH!!!!!!!!!!!! I cant find any plastic around here anywhere!!!!! I went to all the crasft stores, and lowes and home depot...NOTHING. Anybody have any suggestions. I was hopeing to find some in a store so i could guage the thinckness i want, going to be hard to do that ordering from the net. So what are some good sizes. I'm thinking i want something a little thicker for bulkheads and such, and something a we bit thinner from my main deck so it will conform to the shape of the hull.

Reading from everybodies posts, i think i will have to rename this thread project FFG(X), but then again i am the one who said modern Fletcher haha. I appreciate all the feedback. I hadnt even thought of the SPY-1f. Am I understanding correctly that it sounds like a couple people said i would want SPQ-9b and TRS? I dont know a lot about the TRS, the SPQ-9b on the other hand provides an excellent tactical picture of the area it covers. I'm guessing tyhe TRS does the same? I'm not really shooting for the perfect AAW ship, i think we have plenty of those in the fleet, so not sure i want to go with the SPY-1f. I want a good self defence suite for AAW and thats about it. I am kind of going for bare bones, kick some surface butt and be a good anti-sub ship. I could still go either way on the helos, and if i do it ill probably go with a single space helo hanger.

Thanks again for all the suggestions, and keep them comming

Joe

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In God we trust all others we track

Apparently there is even a SPY-1K as well.

Remember that AEGIS and the AN/SPY family of radars are two different things, and the real magic is on the computing side. Ergo, a SPY-1F array is not even remotely as capable as the SPY-1D. Not only does it not haave the same computing power, the radar array is half the size, presumably much lower power (both for the processing, and the radar arrays). If you think the ship may shoot ESSMs and lower end standard missiles, you probably need to consider SPY-1F.

CSGN138,

If you have to get plastic on line I would start with Evergreen Scale Models sheet plastic. Part number 9008 is an assortment and you get one piece each of .010", .020" and .040". This way you can get a feel for the different thicknesses. For what you are doing I would go with the .040" stuff for the superstructure and the thinner stuff for lighter work. You may also want to get a sheet of .030" part number 9230 and .060" part number 9260 to fill in what the assortment does not provide.

Nice job so far,

Bill Liebold

The USN uses AN/SPY-1B and AN/SPY-1D(v) as part of the Aegis combat system. As far as I know the AN/SPY-1F and AN/SPY-1K are smaller vserions of the AN/SPY-1D(v). (I'm an annotation-designation nut if you haven't guessed) The reason you buy a AN/SPY-1F is because you can't afford to buy a AN/SPY-1D(v) and stick it on a DDG like an Arleigh Burke, a JMSDF Kongo, or Spanish F-100 FFG. The AN/SPY-1K is scaled down further from the AN/SPY-1F. The "K" version for even smaller vessels. A source told me its a much lower power version of the "F" that has been developed for a small vessel.

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║ Seasick║
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interesting idea...
I am not sure of your reason to keep both 5 inch and 3 inch guns...
as far as you problem with finding plastic sheeting, I have the same problem here in Atlanta area. I have drive an hour to a hobby shop fighting the famous traffic down here, that carries the stuff.. Alternative suggestions is you can try model railroad shops they carry the stuff or do what I have to do.. order online... their are numerous vendors free time hobbies is great try them..
Your Ideas are cool..
remember this for fun...do what your heart tells you do...

send me a p.m. I have a huge stash of parts from various kits that may work...

thanks for all the recomendations everybody! Its nice to be gone awhile then come here to see that others are engaging in your thought processes. Many thanks to all of you. I love the board, and i think i will find nicely in the "What if" forum because i NEVER could build any model kit the way its supposed to be haha. When i do semi-trucks, i stretch the frames and make bigger sleeper cabs change engines....i can never leave well enough alone haha

I found some plastic at a local model train shop. its the evergreen multi-pack that you were talking about Bill. I got .010 .030 and .040. he didnt have any .060. but its working good so far, now i just need to find time to work on it

I'm likeing the spy-1f idea and im going to go with it. When i originally envisiond this i was shooting for a fletch look. long and low and lots of guns. When i mock up with a helo hanger it deviates way far away from my original idea, so....i may ad a landing pad, but im going to nix the hanger. I need a good poll here on going with the MK110 ir the OTO, lay it out for me. I am definatley going to have the Millenum gun on here, altho I'll wait tell i get farther along in construction to decide how many and where. with the hanger out of the equation there will be plenty of room for a 64 cell MK-41 VLS which i think will give a nice loadout of various missles.
So, now i need to build...untell next time. Fair seas!

Joe

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I notice in the picture harpoon quad packs back to back. That's suicidal, you'll need to move them. The exhaust from a harpoon launching is very high and likely to cook off the quad pack behind it.

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║ Seasick║
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