The Ship Model Forum

I read somewhere about the discussions in the 80's to recommission the Oriskany as part of Reagan's 600 ship navy. I know the idea never got far but if it had, what do you guys think Oriskany would have looked like? I've got a new Revell Hornet and a couple older Revell Saratogas for parts. I'm thinking a what if 1980s Mighty O would be cool to have on the shelf.

The plan was put together when an alternative to building CVN-73, was requested by members of the House or Senate Armed Services Committee. The Oriskany would get a long selected restricted dry dock availability refit. Lots of steam pipes would be replaced, boilers rebuilt, steam turbines would have a complete rebuild with new blades. The berthings for Officers and enlisted brought up to current standards, replace all the food service and laundry equipment. Electronics updates. All remaining 3"/55 and 5"/38 guns would be removed, three or four Phalanx guns added one or two Mk29 Missile launchers for NATO Sea Sparrow. Air search radar replaced with AN/SPS-49, 3D radar replaced with AN/SPS-48E. The Mk23 Target acquisition system for Sea Sparrow as well as two Mk91/95 illuminators per Mk29 launcher. The air wing was to be composed of A-4M, AV-8A, and AV-8B squadrons from the USMC and a helicopter ASW squadron from the USN. F/A-18A and S-3 might have been a possibility but neither had been checked out for SCB-125 carriers. E-2C was to tall as was the F-14A and F-4N/S.

_________________
╔═════╗
║ Seasick║
╚═════╝

I see. Just out of curiosity, do you know why Oriskany was selected? Other than Lexington was she in the best condition of the remaining SCB125 ships?

Oriskany was the last Essex to decom out of active duty, so by the 1980's she was the most up to date vessel available (Hancock also decommed in 1976, but was scrapped). Add that to her later initial commissioning, and it could easily be assumed that her refit would be the least expensive and generate the most time availible for future use out of the class survivors

Lexington AVT-16 was out because she didn't have facilities for repairs or arming. Lots of stuff had been removed.

_________________
╔═════╗
║ Seasick║
╚═════╝

Leave it to Seasick to postulate and come up with something historically unfounded In good nature, in good nature!

Well, the actual surveys of the Oriskany did not even provide them CIWS. She was set to get only the bare, bare, bare minimum modernization in the EARLY 1980s, nowhere near when CVN-73 was being considered. She would have been reactivated and received the bare bones sensor upgrades. That is what is documented.

Any consideration of this was cut because she had a warped flight deck, and that would have cost a lot to fix.

What would have been good, and what would have provided the ship to serve through 2010?

A full Midway sensor and weapons suite would have been good. That would have included 3-4 Phalanx CIWS, 2-3 NATO Sea Sparrow launchers, SRBOC Chaff, NIXIE, SPS-48E, SPS-49(v)2, SLQ-32 ECM, NTDS, various crew served weapons, a new NBC countermeasures suite, OE-82 SATCOM, and catapults that could handle F/A-18 jets.

That would have provided a cool medium sized CV that could be modernized over and over again. We would probably still see it in the fleet today...but that's what they had planned for the battleships, too. The BBs were supposed to serve for "at least 25 more years before another heavy upgrade was needed". But...we see how that turned out.

_________________
Proper Preparation Prevents Poor Performance

Thanks Dave I've decided to skip just remembering I dig up some old documents.

For anyone interested over at the GAO website there is a document with some details:

http://www.gao.gov/assets/140/133392.pdf

Highlights:
"Proposed Configuration for the Oriskany

The proposed configuration for the Oriskany has not changed significantly since the issuance of the Surveys and Investigative Staff study.
The only major change to the configuration has been the decision not to install the close-in weapon system. The decision appears to be based on the system's long lead time and not wanting to divert the system from ships scheduled for its installation."

Airwing:
Two Squadrons of 24 A-4M, and 4 SH-3 helicopters. (Possibility of the Harrier is still under study).

The minimum refit would give the Oriskany 5 years.
To recover the cost of reactivation it should be extended to 10 to 15 years. The refit cost would escalate from $290 million to $503 million.

$10 million to buy and install an all steel flight deck.
$73 million for new ships equipment such as navigation systems, new evaporators, new electrical, and chilled water equipment.

_________________
╔═════╗
║ Seasick║
╚═════╝

I have to say, damn you people for getting my mind off into a 1980's refit Oriskany and thus on to a 1980 refit of Chicago...etc...

So, here is what my mind comes up with using the great reference Seasick found:

The "CVM refit Project" on USS Oriskany gets underway (is funded) in FY82. Using 12 months of plans and 24 of refit, that would take her out to approximately October 1984. I assume there would be about 12 months in delays in the entire process, meaning she recommissions in October 1985.

I would see SPS-48 and 49, maybe with SPN-43 unless Mk23 TAS can be used as an approach radar (probably can). During her refit, I'd see Phalanx come available, so she recommissions with Sea Sparrow and Phalanx.

The refit gives '15 years' of life to her, and she recommissions with an air wing of 24 A-4M, 8-12 OA-4M and a 4 helo ASW/SAR detachment. Her primary role is providing close air support to an amphibious assault, her secondary role is what we might today call 'Littoral Strike Warfare'. Her magazines would primarily be rockets, 500lb bombs and cluster bombs. Maverick and Sidewinder would also be included.

The Marines support her, as she is essentially their carrier, and the ship will allow larger CVNs to concentrate on other missions, and stay farther from the coastline in the high-threat scenario of a forced amphibious landing.

Once she recommissions her A-4 wing would only last until the early 1990s, I'm going to say 1992, when there were large draw downs, leading to the elimination of the A-4 as a 'front line' asset.

Instead of maintaining/refitting the A-4s, by the early 1990s the AV-8B Night attack and Plus models are coming on line, so her airwing get replaced with AV-8Bs and OV-10Ds. This allows the steam catapults and arresting gear to be decommissioned and removed, reducing the crew requirement and potentially adding night capability the A-4s did not have. This allows her to be an easy recipient of cross decked AV-8Bs in an ARG, which would be desirable because of the de-confliction of rotor and fixed wing operations on the LHA/LHDs. When a CVM is in an ARG, the LH becomes a rotor platform, the CVM the fixed wing aviation platform.

The rationalization of airwing with other deployed USMC assets (cheaper than maintaining A-4s at sea for just this asset), combined with good material condition due to recent refit and lowering of crew requirements (due to elimination of the catapults and arresting gear) allows her to survive the 1990's cuts, living on until roughly the year 2000, where further draw downs and what is essentially the elimination of steam from the Navy finally calls her pier side for the final time. One does wonder if there would be any interest in foreign purchase at that time.

It also possible that she gets used as a MCS in the way the Inchon was, or with a doubling of the ASW Helo detachment and 20 or so AV-8B Plus (with APG-65 and AIM-120) you have a reasonable Sea Control Ship/Escort Carrier as well.

Other SCB-125 ships which could have been involved include:
CV-38 USS Shangri-La (last commissioned 1971, not scrapped until 1988)
CV-31 USS Bon Homme Richard (last commissioned 1971, not scrapped until 1992)
CV-20 USS Bennington (last commissioned 1970, not scrapped until 1994)
CV-12 USS Hornet (last commissioned 1970, Museum Ship 1998)

The M in the CVM designation can be assumed to mean "Medium", or "Multi-role" (after 1992), but the crew and airwing know it really stands for "Marine".

For this What-If CVM program, I assume CV-34 is first, with CV-38 following (commissions in 1987), and CV-31 and CV-20 refits cancelled due to the time frame when they would be expected in service against the expected arrival of the Wasp class LHD, which was supposed to have improved aviation handling to take much of this role. CV-12 was never really considered for the program, and becomes a museum in 1998 just like the real world.

So that is a gross SWAG on how my mind is working to fit in this What-If somewhat logically. It may fit with me destroying Pascagoula (delaying the in-service date of the Ticonderoga Class) by massive storm leading to the need to refit the USS Chicago and other older vessels to fill the gap against an aggressive USSR (who invades not only Afghanistan but Iran for oil)...any excuse to rebuild old ships....

Anybody got a 1/700 SCB-125?

I like it. It's too bad nobody makes Harriers in Revells box scale....last time I looked Starfighter was sold out of the A-4's too.

agree, very interesting... I saw the Oriskany in person in 1985 while doing some training at PHILY Shipyard. I know they are supposed to release an angle deck ESSEX in 1/350 some time this year or early next year. Bronco already has the AV-B Harriers.. This would be a very interesting build.

Once she is ready her first deployment will be to the Gulf as part of Preying Mantis and the whole Tanker war. I'm thinking less Sea Sparrow, and Phalanx for weapons and more of the Mk38 25mm Bushmaster, and M2 "Ma Duse" as ship board weapons and the air wing increasingly including more USMC Cobra attack helicopters and Harriers and less A-4 as time goes by. The A-4 in the end will be almost entirely the OA-4M and the remaining A-4M to fly the Buddy store to refuel Harriers.

_________________
╔═════╗
║ Seasick║
╚═════╝

This is becoming more and more interesting. I found this drawing from Cliffy-B who purposed something very similiar the other day. Since I am a visual person it helped me to look at this idea. SumGui & Seasick I agree with you ideas. Specifically that this platform would support more Helo and AV-8B squadrons; with the Helo squadrons being either ASW and/or Attack/Mine Counter warfare as needed by the operation with fixed airwing aircraft not embarked at all.
Not sure which aircraft /platform would be used for re-fueling/support does anyone know if S-2 did that function?
Seasick, like your style however those weapons would supplement Phalanx and Seasparrow. I know the RAM was being installed on DD's during the timeframe of this discussion and remember articles in proceedings about adding RAMS to LPH's why not this platform it would fit the requirements of being minimum modifications and biggest bang for the buck...
The only changes I would make to Cliffy-B drawing would be changing the guns from 8" to 5", add RAMS instead of SeaSparrow, change LCM's to Special OPS Boat's...
Now if they can only get that 1/350 Scale angle deck on the market and let the fun begin..

As my statement was re-enforced by the link Seasick posted, the original configuration of the original draft would have been very, very austere, having deleted any kind of self defense system. No CIWS, no Sea Sparrow, the ship would have had nothing.

However, if the ship had been selected for reactivation, I propose that the scheme would have been changed to meet the requirements of the Midway-class CVs. With the myriad of modifications that would have been involved, the major mods would have perhaps expanded to Phalanx CIWS and Sea Sparrow for ship self defense. The catapults may have likely been upgraded to accommodate F/A-18s. With a reactivation cost of 2-3 times that of a battleship, the Oriskany could have served as a low-cost strike carrier through 2010. It would certainly serve today's Navy with an excellent carrier launching strike craft as opposed to a CVN or LHD.

_________________
Proper Preparation Prevents Poor Performance

You might find this document I have at my Oriskany website interesting:

"Update of the issues concerning the proposed reactivation of the Iowa Class Battleships and the aircraft carrier USS Oriskany" dated Apr 20, 1981.

http://www.ussoriskany.us/Oriskany/orev ... iskany.pdf

_________________
USN - DT3
USS Oriskany 1966 - 1967

My USS Oriskany website