The Ship Model Forum

I'm getting close to wrapping up my 1/200 Bismarck and have LOTS of extra parts that I've collected during the course of the build that would otherwise disappear into my parts bins and probably be wasted.

So I am playing around with an idea of getting another 1/200 Bissy kit and doing a possible new project; a "what if" postwar Bismarck... maybe even if she had survived through to today like many WW2 era U.S. battleships.

I'm imagining two general tracks, both assuming the Bismarck wasn't sunk during the war.

1. If Germany had won the war.

2. If America or the UK kept the Bismarck and refit it for service in their navies (maybe as a training ship even?) or made it into a museum ship.

Some questions to think about...

What modifications do you think Bismarck would have received during the course of the war and/or after? Certainly more AA a la Tirpitz... anything else?

What is the likelyhood an unsunk Bismarck would have escaped scrapping or use as a target ship?

If Germany had eventually won the war, I suspect the Bismarck class would still have been the last (and greatest) battleships Germany built. By that time it was clear battleships were obsolete so it would have been a complete waste of resources to continue building the H-class ships. I imagine the H-class idea would have still ended like the Montana Class (scrapped on the ways early in construction, as things happened in reality for both ships) and a victorious Germany would have focused on building other more practical kinds of warships. Considering how Nazi Germany loved self-glorification, it's easy to imagine the obsolete Bismarck escaping the shipbreaker's torch and eventually becoming a museum ship and/or repurposed like the Iowa Class.

If the allies had won, would be possible the Bismarck would have been given an overhaul and name change... perhaps like the war reparation German pre-WWI liners like the SS Vaterland was turned into the SS Levithan or SS Bismarck into the RMS Majestic?

Although I honestly think a surrendered Bismarck would most likely have been parked next to the Prinz Eugen and Nagato at Bikini Atoll, what other (realistic) use could the USN or RN have found for the Bismarck?

Please help me be hypothetical or counter my rational if it's off-base. The great thing about "what if" stuff is that no idea is wrong!

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-Jason Channell

Current Project: 1/200 Bismarck

Lets say the Bismarck was beached in Iceland after the Denmark Strait battle because of severe battle damage. There is an earthquake a few months later and the Bismarck finds itself high and dry as the ground below it rises up a few meters. Bismarck sits out the rest of the war as its crew ends up in prison camps in Canada.

Fast forward to 1955, Iceland would like Germany to remove the battleship. The USN and Royal Navy had repaired some damage to keep her water tight as weapons were removed for analysis. West Germany's Navy makes her ready to go to sea as a canal is dug to her from the sea (only a 100 meters or so). The ship is re-floated and towed to Hamburg. Its 1957 and Bismarck is in dry dock at Hamburg and someone else can continue from here.

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In the age of steel and steam ships can't very easily be transferred from one navy to another without a great deal of support. USN ships sold in South America or to allies always come with large maintenance deals. Machine parts, weapons, electronics all need support. The sister ship of the Prinz Eugen sold to the Soviet Union ended up being used as a training ship as did the ex-Nurenburg light cruiser awarded to the Soviets as a war prize, they couldn't be made to be deployable warships because of a lack parts, and other things. Everything had to be custom made or if possible purchased from East Germany if they still had parts available.

West Germany might have used Bismarck as a floating gun platform in some strategy to close the Baltic so soviet ships could not exit. Its all kind of "iffy".

NAZI Germany winning WW2 is too lurid and dark for me to consider.

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║ Seasick║
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Good points that I didn't think about, especially the maintenance aspect. I forgot why battleships were the most expensive capitol ships on the ocean for any nation...

I just read a book about the Bismarck saga that I picked up at the library over the weekend and learned several new things... like how the Rodney was literally shaking itself apart everytime she shot her big guns or how even getting the Prinz Eugen across the Atlantic after the war was a major project because of mechanical problems.

I guess there was really 0% chance the Bismarck could have been put into service in any postwar navy even without the attached stigma... to keep her operational would have been a VERY expensive maintenance nighmare with no real return as the battleship era was clearly over by that point.

I have a hard time imagining anybody wanting to keep a blatant symbol of Nazi ambition as a museum in the decades after the war either.

So that means the only semi-realistic way an unsunk Bismarck would survive to the 21st century is if the Nazi's won and made her a museum ship... and yes, it is a very disturbing proposition to imagine.

I'm not sure I'd want to dedicate dozens of hours of free time to that idea; I guess if I want to do another one I should just stick with history and do another one...

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-Jason Channell

Current Project: 1/200 Bismarck

Well, you have successfully come up with a very interesting "what if". While I echo some of the sentiments of not being able to imagine a Nazi victory, this is a fantastic "what if" to model. Test your skills and modernize a Bismarck just like the Iowa's were modernized. Would be a one of a kind model and would provide you with hours of enjoyment building it. I look forward to your completed work!!!!

Razorblades....

Bismarck sitting out the war beached and not being re-floated until after the Korean war is the only way to save it from being vaporized by an A-Bomb or being cut up by one of the victors. Britain had a severe steel shortage after WW2 and undoubtedly if Bismarck was around in 1946 they would have wanted her for all her steel. The British would have used the steel to repair war damaged bridges and other structures. Besides holding a fine edge the steel has a high shear strength.

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║ Seasick║
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OK, clearly the Bismarck wouldn't have been around very long had she survived the war.

What about the other, more chilling prospect?

I had a random diorama idea for a bit of a reverse on the Missouri surrender ceremony; a American surrender ceremony on the decks of the Bismarck in NY harbor, next to a wrecked Statute of Liberty.

Maybe a little "shock art" to make people appreciate what they have, and how easy it is to loose it?

Opinions?

How could it be pulled off without feeling like a celebration of evil... or could it?

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-Jason Channell

Current Project: 1/200 Bismarck

Be careful about that. A diorama like that getting posted on the internet could attract attention from really nasty people.

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║ Seasick║
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You'd have to somehow make the Germans just another country in a war and not evil Nazi fascists bent on world domination and extermination of entire peoples. No Hitler, Nazis, final solution BS, swastikas, etc... The only way to do all of that would, believably and realistically, would be to create an alternate history where Hitler and the Nazis never come to power. If you went that route then Germany would probably never go to war in 1939, sign their alliance with Italy and Japan, etc.. etc... Japan might still start their Pacific war with the US and other European Colonial powers in the Pacific but WWII would be drastically different and might not even involve a European front unless you have the Soviets start something. Shoot, you could could even have Germany fighting on the side of the Allies if you worded it well enough. In all honesty that would make for a VERY interesting and intriguing read if done well. Imagine a German Pacific Fleet centered on Bismarck, Graff Zeppelin, Scharnhoarst, Hipper, M-Class CLs, Spahkruezers, and a myriad of support ships all fighting WITH the Allies against the Japanese!! Man if that's not interesting

See how vast and deep the rabbit hole is

Sorry for the thread derailment. When the light bulbs go off...

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Drawing Board:
1/700 Whiff USS Leyte and escorts 1984
1/700 Whiff USN Modernized CAs 1984
1/700 Whiff ASW Showdown - FFs vs SSGN 1984

Slipway:
1/700 Whiff USN ASW Hunter Killer Group Dio 1984

Interesting idea CliffyB! A Weimar Bismarck as an Allied Ship.... this rabbit hole really is bottomless!

... But I honestly doubt the Bismarck would have even been built had the Nazis never come to power. I can't see Weimar ever surviving their economic crisis without permanently becoming a MUCH weaker and poorer country, much less building super-battleships in the 30's to compete against the rest of the world.

Nevertheless, I pulled the trigger the other day and another Bismarck is on it's way. I'd make an appointment with the psychatrist too, but now I can't afford the copayment.

I've scratched the idea of doing a victorious Bismarck; it's just too grim for me and not all that realistic in the end, making that diorama more of an advertisement for things I do not approve of than anything else.

The fact of the matter is that if the Bismarck had not been sunk in '41, she would have been sunk later on and/or probably had a history more like the Tirpitz; there is just no getting around it. The Kriegsmarine simply could not have had the ability to compete with the RN, even if the war started later.

I'm now thinking about doing a wreck diorama instead...

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-Jason Channell

Current Project: 1/200 Bismarck

Here's an idea for you:

What if the Bismarck had been captured by the British, and then after the war it was sold to the United States for scrapping. But, instead of scrapping the ship, the USN decided to take it to a secret shipyard in Alaska where it was hidden for the next, oh, 40 years. Then, in the mid 80s the ship was brought back for a modernization comparable to that o what the Iowas went through. It was then used through the 90s, and and decommissioned. By the early 2000s it became a museum ship, as the sentiment over the ship had changed. It, along with the Prinz Eugen (Which had become part of the secret fleet in Alaska) and the Iowas, in 2021 are reactivated and are turned into NSFS warships, retaining their forward turrets but losing their rear ones in favor of 64-cell Tomahawk batteries. I think it would be cool to have the Bismarck, flying the American Flag, sailing next to the USS Iowa, or even a modern CVN.

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Greetings from Montana!

Ryon Olson

Bismarck captured!

Instead of being lost the disabled Bismarck is captured by the Royal Navy and towed to Northern Ireland.

A diorama of her with minor repairs done and Royal Navy and British symbols painted on to her. The White Ensign painted on to the roof of a turret. Non-maritime cheap rolled steel welded over holes to keep water out. The swastika on the bow painted out with a Union Jack. Sitting pier side for a photo op.

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║ Seasick║
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I'm pretty much convinced the Bismarck would never have been put into active service with an Allied Navy; it would just be too cost prohibitive, especially considering the Allies had too many better battleships of their own to take care of at the end of the war.

I wonder what the likelihood of a captured Bismarck finding it's way into the Mothball fleet for 50 years or so? After that it would only be natural to have her saved and restored as a museum ship.

I'm not a navy man; would the USN or (less likely) RN keep a German battleship in mothballs that they didn't really intend to use in the future? Maybe as a potential training ship that just never comes to fruition?

Maybe we could imagine Bismarck was saved with the intent to use her as a target for nuclear tests but couldn't get her to Bikini for some reason. Soon, above ground nuclear testing was banned by treaty, leaving the ship to rot in the ghost fleet instead?

How long does it take for a ship to go from mothballs to the scrapyard anyway? How is it decided which ships stay and which are disposed of?

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-Jason Channell

Current Project: 1/200 Bismarck

If real life is any indication, 15 years or so sounds good. All of the fast battleships (except the Iowas) were decommissioned soon after the war, but weren't scrapped or museumized until the early '60s.

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De quoi s'agit-il?

It can never end up in allied custody before 1960.
1. In British custody she would be scrapped almost immediately. The British had a steel shortage all through the war and into the late 1940s.
2. The United States would have sunk her as an A-bomb target.
3. The Russians would cut her up. Also she would be stripped for spare parts for kreigsmarine ships awarded to the Soviet Union as war prizes, mainly Admiral Marakov (ex-DKM Nuremberg)
4. France like the British needed steel.
5. If Bismarck made it to Japan and survived the war she would have been an a-bomb target, or been scrapped.

She needs to find her to a remote location and be in a disposition that she can't be moved easily.
1. Interned in South America
2. beached in a secluded area near tierra del fugeo or in Antarctica.

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║ Seasick║
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Yea, I realize that David (and said it alredy)... I'm just messing around with ideas for a new 1/200 build. As I've already (almost) finished a big Bismarck already, I'm thinking it might be fun to do a "what if" version and am trying to imagine a plausible scenario.

I guess the problem with the Bismarck as a preserved and/or museum ship would be a bit pointless as she would not have much modification from wartime service... so why not just imagine an unsunk Bismarck in 1943-45?

Here's yet another idea... What about a Soviet refitted (former) Bismarck to counter the refitted Iowas, using the Kirov as inspiration?

Again, I don't know how likely it would have been for the Soviets to keep a captured Bismarck either...

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-Jason Channell

Current Project: 1/200 Bismarck

Seasick... I didn't know the Soviets got any Kriegsmarine ships after the war... honestly, I'd think the Soviets would keep the Bismarck and scrap/loot the lessor ships for parts if they had the opportunity!

I don't know... It's fun but very hard to deviate from history without creating a mess instead of an interesting (and plausible) display.

Still thinking here... I'm not gonna start cutting the new hull up until/unless I've got a great idea and an even better plan.

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-Jason Channell

Current Project: 1/200 Bismarck

The Soviets did get an Italian BB (Giulio Cesare) and kept her until 1955 when she struck an old mine and was summarily scrapped afterwards.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_battleship_Giulio_Cesare

You could make a case for them keeping Bismarck postwar but I'd say that they'd have to capture her as I doubt they'd be given such a "new" and powerful ship. Nuremberg wasn't much and Cesare was WWI vintage. Only other modern ships they got were some DDs that I know of. I could see the Russians refitting Bismarck and using her if only as a modern stop gap until their own postwar BBs and BCs were finished IF they pursued them postwar instead of halting all capital ship construction following Stalin's demise. You could do it, just need to research it some more and word it correctly.

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Drawing Board:
1/700 Whiff USS Leyte and escorts 1984
1/700 Whiff USN Modernized CAs 1984
1/700 Whiff ASW Showdown - FFs vs SSGN 1984

Slipway:
1/700 Whiff USN ASW Hunter Killer Group Dio 1984

Stalin's pathology would make him want to keep such a status symbol. Being that he was building building six battleships and six battle cruisers right up until the day he died. The ships were canceled two weeks later by Khrushchev.

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║ Seasick║
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It is very tempting, and I've been doing a bit of research to find out a bit more on what the differences between the two ships were. Turns out there are A LOT of differences though... it would not be as easy as I first thought to mod the Trumpy kit into the Tirpitz.

Rumor is Trumpeter is going to do it for us in the near future and release a 1/200 Tirpitz too... It might be best to just wait for the inevitable aftermarket barrage before making an attempt.

I think I'm gonna put this potential project on the back burner for a bit... maybe do something else in the stash first... after the first Bissy is finished.

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-Jason Channell

Current Project: 1/200 Bismarck