McL,
Yeah, you're right. It sucks. The Navy continues to bend itself over and just ram a massive meat stick up its own butt. I'm starting to think the homo-comments made about the Navy are actually pointed toward the upper chain.
The object of these mental gymnastics and such are to help me figure out what kind of a platform I can refer to in a book I am writing. Even though hindsight is 20/20, the case really makes one think that the Navy has really f-ed itself trying to support the DDX program from bow to stern.
Like I told CNO Roughhead, we already fixed the NSFS problem, and it wasn't even with the battleships. We foresaw the problem of the 5" gun winding up being the heaviest piece of naval ordnance out there. Those who have had the interest have discovered that we have understood for nearly 60 years now that the 5" gun is useless for NSFS. As a result, the practical problem solvers of the Navy began solving this problem and produced a solution. This solution was the Mk71 Mod0 MCLWG. Then, it was time to begin working out the bugs. The weapon tested and passed nearly everything including landing 19 of 20 Army Copperhead rounds on a test hulk. What it did not pass was AAW.
When this occurred, and it was clear the Mk71 was ready to be tried on another platform with a proper and corresponding GFC system, Big Navy said, "uhh, oh, hey, whoa, whoa, whoa. No, no, no, no, no. Let's stop right there. You guys are actually serious about producing a gun for all destroyers and cruisers that can actually deliver heavy ordnance aren’t you? Now you're shooting Army laser guided rounds? No way, man. Stop that. In fact, clean out your desks."
However, all 31 Spruance-class DDs were equipped with a reinforced forward gun mount in the case that the Navy would finally confront the NSFS problem. We all know that even though the battleships are the best NSFS platforms out there, even if we got Iowa and Wisconsin reactivated, they would only be novelty pieces that would help the situation IF they happened to be close to the conflict so they could run as fast as they could to the area. The capability would be there, however.
What some people seem to forget is that what matters is what lands down range, not what you have in the stock system or what kind of off-the-shelf parts you get. People spent so much time trying to make the 5" gun worth a poop, and even if it got all the way out to 100nm+ like they were trying, only three Coke cans with 5lbs of explosive would arrive. The ERGM project manager, a Captain who had spent a very large amount of time on the project, agreed with me that the Navy had started at the wrong point. They started at the gun mount instead of starting at the point of impact. We agreed that the smallest projectile worth anything was the 8-inch, and you go from there.
The Mk71 gives us the flexibility for every DDG and CG to go ahead and have a credible and actual NSFS capability. I am glad everyone's so hard over the 57mm gun. It looks super cool on YouTube and FutureWeapons. It really blows a recreational boat out of the water, and I am sure if there were some Toyota Tochomas rading across the surface of the water at you with RPGs in them, you could really tear some terrorist up, but everyone was all over the 76mm too, and that one turned out to be very mediocre in practical application.
I work at NNSY, and I was on the Ashland (yuck) and Carter Hall (yuck) for a period of time as I was in the Northern Arabian Gulf. I guess you guys don't get to see these ships for real very often, but I must say that if an LSD gets 2 of Phalanx and RAMs, then a modernized Sprucan would likely, too.
Concerning the Army weaponry, I have always been pretty much against that kind of stuff, because if we are talking about a practical application of technology, which is the exercise here, the Navy would not likely delve into ARMY stuff. Army weapons don’t think the same way as Navy ones. As with the Patriot, there is likely a big deal with the fire-control systems needed to point MLRS type weapons in the right direction so they come down in the right area or they don't get lost. The Patriot has a very hard time with moving around its base reference point. Its FCS does not like to be on a moving platform at all. When you suggest that kind of thing (putting a Patriot battery on a ship in place of Harpoon on a DDG for instance) and the room goes quiet and someone tries to explain the basics of static radar base to a know-nothing E-5 GM like myself, you begin to understand the problems associated with just sharing weapon systems...or talking to brass at all. Army and Navy equipment don't go together like they should or like we'd like them to.
With MLRS, you can't just shoot a GPS weapon from wherever you want and have it come down on the GPS coordinate. A fire-control solution still has to go into the system so the weapon has a reference point, and that is not at all as easy as it sounds. TLAMs take so, so, so, so long to program that even the tactical tomahawk is having super problems being justified as a support weapon. So, if we wanted to use MLRS on ships I think we would have to custom make a FCS for it.
But that's all beside the point. These are some really cool suggestions, guys. Please keep the gymnastics going. I am finishing a USS Bunker Hill for a friend of mine (in appreciation for being my sea-daddy) and my USS Kentucky that I hope some of you guys have seen. Even though I have been doing quite a bit of work on the Spruance's forward mast, I have not really done all that much work on the Sprucan DDG yet. I hope as soon as these other projects are down, I will be able to jump right on the DDG Sprucan and get her running.
The Arthur W Radford found here
http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html continues to be my inspiration for my DDG-963 project. He did such a good job making that ship look good. MAN!
Mclencho wrote:
Very interesting and lively discussion:
Wanted to chime in here with a couple of sobering stats:
31 Spruance hulls were built
4 scrapped
25 sunk
2 afloat, the Foster and the Radford.
I wonder what condition the Radford is in after the '99 collision, maybe good, with a fairly recent repair, or a shoddy job and in bad condition.
The Foster is in use as the Self Defense Test Ship, so I would hope she is servicable.
I think is might be a good use to have a Spruance used as a forward HQ, maybe leading a squadron of an FFG or 2, and 3 or four of the PC class (Cyclones I think) to patrol and escort through the pirate area off the Somali coast.
Fun to think through all the scenarios, I don't think it would be as much to be in now as it was when I was in '90-96. Even as I was leaving things were getting busy for the surface fleet as the number of ships started going down, I imagine that just continued after I separated.
Finally Radford is slated to become an artificial reef off New Jersey or Delaware and because of the water depth I have read some of the superstructure might get shaved off, so Radford might be so mangled even if in good material shape she wouldn't useful. I guess it might be nice to start with a clean hull since we're playing the what would I do game that might bring some very creative ideas out.
Again great thread.
USS Hewitt DD-966 CSE 1991-1994
USS Ingraham FFG-61 1994-1996