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 Post subject: HMS Jamaica 1942/43
PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 8:24 am 
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Struggling a little with the camouflage for this one. I believe the main colours for RN cruisers at that time (going off Belfast's scheme which is much better documented) should be AP507A, B5, B6 and AP507C. However I can't work out from pictures of the ship which, if any, panels are actually B6, especially on the port side where good pictures are lacking. Any help would be appreciated.

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 Post subject: Re: HMS Jamaica 1942/43
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:29 pm 
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Hi All

Hi Vlad, the problem is with RN schemes a lot of the information was disposed of post war for various reasons and unfortunately most schemes are an educated guess!

I have seen some observation trials reports of Jamaica in her 1942 scheme that mentions MS1 B5 and MS4 but as you say there seems to be very light patches of something similar to 507c in there too so it is possible a 4 tone scheme but without the original plans I'm afraid it's impossible to say.

Sorry I cannot be of more help, there are some good images of Jamaica on the IWM site that may help
Best wishes
Cag.


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Jamaica 1942/43
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:11 pm 
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Thanks for the input Cag, interesting only B5 is the common point between my assumption and your reports. I am basing on the L'Arsenal kit instructions and as I said colour call-outs for RN ships operating on similar duties at the same time (Belfast being key here, but also HMS Howe, both these ships use B5 and B6 as the middle 2 in a 4-tone scheme). The L'Arsenal instructions call for AP507A, B5 and AP507C but their render of the ship clearly shows 4 colours of which 2 ambiguously match the B5, leaving it up to the observer to decide if there was a 4th and what it was.

I'm going off 5 pictures, 3 starboard and 2 port, of which the port ones seem to be taken at a different time as the ship has the "lighthouse" style radar in front of the bridge, missing (presumably not yet installed) on the starboard side shots. Of course that could be the other way around, but at the very least the scheme could have changed in between shots (and indeed did at least at the bow). This is made worse by the terrible quality of one of the port side shots. Here's where I am at the moment:

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

The first two pictures (to my eye) show a fourth colour in use at the bow, in the area running under B turret and forward to the anchor, split by a small segment of the darkest colour (MS1 or AP507A). This is consistent with the way the L'Arsenal instructions show 4 colours. I think there is little doubt about which panels were in the darkest colour and in B5, really the issue is if this apparent 4th colour is real and if yes which of the light panels use it as opposed to the "standard" lightest colour (I'm sticking with AP507C here as MS4 is green and that doesn't sit well in my mind with ships in arctic service).

But let's not dwell on what each colour is, instead call the colours A, B, C and D with A being the darkest and D being the lightest. My interpretation of the scheme is as follows (more for my own benefit than anything else but hoping to spur discussion):

Starboard side:

Hull:

- stern - B
- X turret to under torpedo tubes - A
- dark splotches amidships - A
- light spaces amidships - D
- under bridge and B turret - B
- under A turret and bow to anchors - C broken up with a splotch of A
- tip of bow - B

Superstructure:

- Y turret - B
- X turret and rear control position - D or C (in order of likelyhood by my observation)
- aft funnel - C or D (in order of likelyhood by my observation)
- most of rear superstructure - A
- bridge and B turret - C with B on bridge side and fore funnel and A on hangar side
- A turret - D

Port side:

Hull:

- bow - B
- dark section tapering from A turret to waterline - A
- light section - D
- midships - A
- light strip - D
- dark section aft - B (mostly according to the larger stern quarter shot, from the other small picture it could be anything...)
- stern - D or possibly C

Superstructure:

- A turret - D
- B turret and splotch going down to hull - B
- bridge - looks like D with large splotch of B on bridge side, but if the bridge front is C (see starboard side) then this should have wrapped around, but then the hull directly underneath is D... or is it... argh!!!
- hangar side - A
- most of aft superstructure side - B
- X turret and aft control position - C
- Y turret - B
- stern - D or (less likely) C

What do you think? Apologies if that's confusing, tomorrow I might repeat this exercise by annotating the drawings instead!

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 Post subject: Re: HMS Jamaica 1942/43
PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:27 am 
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Hi All

Hi Vlad, I'm afraid this is the problem we have, with no record we must resort to images to guess the colour. And with that comes the inherent problems, different lighting conditions, different angles to the light source, blue paints shifting in varying lights etc etc.

As for MS4 I wouldn't count it out, MS3 was the green colour you mentioned but MS4 was a grey. Your B6 idea was not far off, paints had a reflectance factor (how much light was reflected by the paint compared to white paint) so put simply the higher the number the lighter or brighter was the paint.

B6 had a reflectance factor of 32% iirc where as MS4 was 30% so would be similar in appearance for tone in images but not in hue (not a problem in black and white!) and so MS4, if mentioned, may not be at odds with any scheme.

The problem with black and white images is that in certain lighting conditions B5 may look lighter and MS4 darker and vice versa and so on and so on. The best thing to do is what you have done, ask for debate and opinion, if I were to guess from records,

A is MS1
B is B5
C is MS4
D is 507c

But I could be wrong (I am quite often, I've gone back to putting my name in my clothes so as to give me a fighting chance of answering the question " what's your name") but I'm sure you are on the right path and the good thing is the real experts who can remember their own name are right here on this forum and they are happy and willing to help!

In the end it's your model and if you are happy that it is as close as you can get it, then it's a success.

Best wishes
Cag.


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Jamaica 1942/43
PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:38 am 
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Hi All

Hi Vlad just to add if you look at your first posted image and spot that on the forward main armament director there seems to be two tones, one coming from the portside (your B tone or B5?) and the lighter tone seen on the starboard bridge and forward funnel (your C tone perhaps MS4?).

Hope this helps and not hinders
Best wishes
Cag.


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Jamaica 1942/43
PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:24 am 
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Yes, sorry, MS3 and MS4a are the green ones, MS4 is grey so it makes more sense. You're absolutely right about the lighting and other issues. I remember reading that some period film was over-sensitive to blue so the blues in the camouflage would come out lighter than they should, making it easier to confuse them for the lighter greys.

Also the interpretation of some colours seems to vary wildly. B6 for example (even if not used here) seems to be anything from a dull purple-ish grey, to a light blue, to an almost blue-green "sky" colour, depending on where you look. MS4 is called "warm light grey" and seems to look anything from dull grey to beige in some interpretations.

This is why I'm not too fussed about what the four colours actually were, I may take some liberties and artistic license in interpretation to provide a more consistent and good looking tone (lots if blues for the northern/arctic setting).

As for the forward FC director, I agree there are two tones and that the darker one coming from the port side is probably B5, it's hard to tell though if the lighter one is what I call C or D and whether this extends onto the bridge face. Note also that in the second picture the face of B turret is dark while it's light in the first picture, so the scheme did vary.

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 Post subject: Re: HMS Jamaica 1942/43
PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:58 pm 
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Although 1944, this may help you:

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205157398

or this:

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205157399


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Jamaica 1942/43
PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:57 pm 
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dick wrote:


That is very helpful! I tried looking there but I find their search functionality horribly designed and generally I don't find what I want or just get frustrated and give up. But yes, that to me right there is proof there are 4 colours, since none of the shades in the photo are the darkest (MS1), but A turret is clearly different to B turret, which is the same as the bridge face, that then has a third darker shade (B5) on the upper and port sections.

It also shows I was wrong earlier, it seems the "lantern" style radar (forget the designation) in front of the bridge is an early feature than got removed rather than vice-versa.

EDIT: Also a spot of luck. It seems HMS Mauritius wore an almost identical pattern, so that adds a few more photos to the comparison (with the caveat that it isn't the same ship).

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