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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 1:44 pm 
Guys:
I've been struggling with RN colors to paint Haida in 1944 -

Munro plans states 3 colors:
'Off-white' - obviously RN off-white
'Mid grey-green' - which must be G20 ? Wouldnt be the 'warm grey' G45.
'Pale blue', - which must be B30 ? Or is it B55 ?

I know that these ships were painted 'Special Emergency Fleet Destroyer Scheme' which is typically G20, G45, B30 & white. Most models of Haida are painted in a 3 color scheme looking like G20 & B30 & white.
Question is, why was Haida painted in just 3 of these colors, not the standard 4? And what were the colors? Maybe her scheme was a one-off?
Any comments are welcome


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 7:05 am 
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It is not stated where you are from but the definitive book is HMCS Haida - Battle Ensign Flying ( B. Gough), I know it is readily available in Canada and Australia. There are some paintings in it that may be helpful. I'm not sure about the colours you have stated however some references seem to point to western approaches shades. You could do a search on Ryan Cameron (perhaps on this site) who has done Haida.
George


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 11:22 am 
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The Emergency Fleet Scheme for Destroyers was a 3 colour pattern, G10, G45 and White. There was also a 4 colour variation using G20, B30, G45 and white. The 4th colour seems to be mainly on the aft superstructure.

G20 Medium Grey-Green
G10 Dark Grey
B30 Medium Grey-Green
G45 Warm Light Grey

This image shows the 4 colour pattern on HMS Tartar G43 nicely, although it States B10 instead of G20. Since B10 doesn't exist, they could mean G10, G20 or B20.
Image

It's important to keep in mind that Ships didn't always use the official colours. Paint supplies were often hard to come by and crews would use whatever they could get their hands on or mix up.
Also, because patterns and paints were always changing during the war, these are best guesses based on incomplete references.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:00 am 
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Just a quick correction:

G45 wasn't a warm grey. That is an error which has crept in somewhere post-war. It is most definitely a cool blue-grey and its pigmentation included only white, black and ultramarine blue. Identical, infact, to 507C. Light Reflectance Value was 45%.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 12:19 pm 
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Indeed, and another: B30 was a blue grey not a grey green.

The only official reference I know of that illustrates this scheme is CB3098R of 1943. It lists four colours: white, G20, B30 and G45. Any three colour applications would be a variation on that.

However having looked closely at the various black and white photos of Haida in the summer of 1944 I see four distinct shades.

From some colour photography aboard Haida late April 1944:

The darker shade on the aft of forward funnel and all the twin 20mm AA mount between the funnels was definitely a light grey.

The shielding on the pom pom aft was definitely a blue.


Last edited by dick on Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:10 pm 
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Okay, okay, my bad. That'll teach me for being lazy and copying colour descriptions from other websites.

Here are photos of the HMC Colour reference from 1945.

Image
ImageImage
Image
ImageImage
ImageImage

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:18 pm 
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And for good measure, official Army descriptions. (With Opinions!)

Image
ImageImage
ImageImage
ImageImage

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:36 pm 
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Wow, Thanks guys for the responses! And Happy Holidays to you!
James - Surprised to hear G45 is a lt. grey like 507c, and not 'warm grey'... that changes a lot of RN ship profiles!

Dick, here is Haida's 1944 camo scheme as per the Munro plan (copyright to him, presented as discussion only), showing indeed the aft quad pom-pom is in the blue shade (I assume B30?). However, the plan calls for white between the funnels & the powered 20mm mountings here. But you saw light grey, maybe G45?

Dick, the scheme you describe from your photos actually mirrors the plate posted above by Darren for HMS Tartar; G20 (darker grey/green) on the hull, G45 grey on forward structures (including funnels & the powered 20mm mountings there) & then B30 blue on the rear superstructures (ie the pom-pom). Interesting, maybe we discovered Haida's scheme?


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:41 pm 
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Maybe this will help bring it all together,

Image

G10 shows a bit too dark, bad photo.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:43 pm 
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dick wrote:
From some colour photography aboard Haida late April 1944:


Dick, Can you share these photos? I don't think I've seen any colour pics of Haida during the war.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 2:37 am 
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Admhawk wrote:
Okay, okay, my bad. That'll teach me for being lazy and copying colour descriptions from other websites.

Here are photos of the HMC Colour reference from 1945.

Image
ImageImage
Image
ImageImage
ImageImage


Hi Darren, that's a very useful post and I have just put 2 and 2 together and realised that Dick had previously spoken of you to me in private regarding these.

May I PM you about it?

Best regards,

Jamie

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:44 am 
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Sure

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:02 pm 
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Darren,

If you go to the first link below you will see some film taken from an unknown ship of (bow damaged) Ashanti, then Athabaskan then Huron entering Plymouth Sound, then at 21 secs this view from the quarterdeck looking up and forwards in which the blue of the just visible top of the curved pom pom shielding can be seen:

Attachment:
Haida 1944 4 Plymouth camera ship - Copy.jpg


(I am sure you will understand from this still why I believe the camera ship was Haida.)

Then some more shots at sea of Huron and then the twin 20 mounting at the end.

http://footage.framepool.com/en/shot/56 ... nnon-d-day

If you go to the second link below you will see some more film.

Huron, Piorun, Huron, Ashanti, Tartar then at 33 secs the twin 20mm amidships:

Attachment:
D Haida 1944 4 camera ship - Copy.jpg



then Athabaskan and then at 46 secs the forward main armament firing taken from a platform at the side of the bridge showing it too was light grey before the film returns to further shots of various of the flotilla as before:

http://footage.framepool.com/en/shot/81 ... iser-d-day

In the group montage of the paints you included an image of B6. What is the provenance of that B6 please?

Best wishes.


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Last edited by dick on Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:33 pm 
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dick wrote:
Darren,

In the group montage of the paints you included an image of B6. What is the provenance of that B6 please?

Best wishes.


Thanks! I'll spend some time going through the films.

I think it's the B6 image you sent me, isn't it?

Darren

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 1:05 am 
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Dick, Darren & Jamie:
Dick thanks overwhelmingly for that post of those Tribals in action...From what you describe in those clips, the scheme you describe actually mirrors the plate posted above by Darren for HMS Tartar; G20 (darker grey/green) on the hull, G45 grey on forward structures (including funnels & the powered 20mm mountings there) & then B30 blue on the rear superstructures (ie the pom-pom). Interesting, maybe we discovered Haida's scheme?


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 7:04 am 
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Hello Darren, thanks for the images. Happy New Year to all.

The greens, browns, etc, that you posted along with the index page with the quaint observations is, I believe, BS987C: 1942, or an iteration thereof. These are paints for buildings and installations. Patrick Baty gives an interesting insight to them here...http://patrickbaty.co.uk/2011/10/05/wartime-camouflage-colours/

Regards,
Lindsay


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:02 am 
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dick wrote:
Indeed, and another: B30 was a blue grey not a grey green.

The only official reference I know of that illustrates this scheme is CB3098R of 1943. It lists four colours: white, G20, B30 and G45. Any three colour applications would be a variation on that.

However having looked closely at the various black and white photos of Haida in the summer of 1944 I see four distinct shades.

From some colour photography aboard Haida late April 1944:

The darker shade on the aft of forward funnel and all the twin 20mm AA mount between the funnels was definitely a light grey.

The shielding on the pom pom aft was definitely a blue.


Hello all,

I agree with Dick on this; I see four shades, I believe it would be G20, B30, G45 and white, and that it is an adaptation of CB3098 plate 401.

If Dick is correct that the AA mount between the funnels was grey in the colour footage, then the attached mark-up seems like a good possibility for the scheme. I can't quite tell the tone of X and Y turrets; I believe that they would be B30, but Dick might know from the colour footage.

The adaptation (other than plate 401 being of a single-funnelled destroyer) seems to be limited to the three diagonal bars (of white, I can best assume) on the G20 panel, each side of Haida's hull.

The design (plate 401) is specifically for fleet destroyers. Basically it was found that the light schemes were of such affect that when applied to Fleet destroyers in northern waters, the risk of collision with friendly ships when attempting to hold station was a greater threat than an attack by U boat. The fix was to make the aft and sides darker, but to have light bows as they were warranted in hiding the ship when the destroyer was moving head-on to the attack. The high contrast was also seen as an aid to confusing inclination. (CB3098 sections 167 to 170 refer.)

Apologies for any statements of the obvious.

Regards,
Lindsay


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:09 pm 
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So after reviewing the videos and photos of the ships two things jump out at me.

1 - In the scheme Huron is wearing, the fwd and upper panels do NOT look like G45. It Looks more like B30.

and,

2. The scheme Athabaskan is wearing looks like B30 as well, however, sources say it is B55.

So, the question I have is, does colour movie film of the period affect the tone of colours as much as black and white film of the period can? Or are these colours completely different than currently believed?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:52 pm 
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Guys:
Reference credit to Dick & his excellent video attachments of course...
Looking at these 3 stills from Dick's videos, assuming the camera ship is Haida, looks like:
- The Y (rearmost) 4.7" or 4" gun mounting has the blue color Dick & Lindsay & Darren suggested was on the stern
Attachment:
Y 4.7 mounting.jpg


- This shot shows (I believe) the 20mm midship mounting looking forward, as you can see the boat davit to the right.
Colour here would suggest the gray G45 one, as we have assumed previously.
Attachment:
Stbd looking fwd at midship 20mm.jpg


- This shot shows (I believe) the back side of the bridge wing 20mm mounting looking forward, showing what appears to be white, which again jives with our scheme.
Attachment:
Stbd looking fwd at 20mm.jpg


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:13 pm 
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Admhawk wrote:
So after reviewing the videos and photos of the ships two things jump out at me.

1 - In the scheme Huron is wearing, the fwd and upper panels do NOT look like G45. It Looks more like B30.

and,

2. The scheme Athabaskan is wearing looks like B30 as well, however, sources say it is B55.

So, the question I have is, does colour movie film of the period affect the tone of colours as much as black and white film of the period can? Or are these colours completely different than currently believed?


Darren: That's quite a question...! Agree entirely. However the color chips you presented earlier are quite close to the video; G45 seems indeed to be a light grey, B55 blue is definitely a mid-blue/grey color and G20 looks more grey/blue than green, as your chips show. Great news for us modelers!
So I think we uncovered some significant data here, which has a real bearing on RN/RCN camo.
Guess theres lots more research left to do?


Last edited by Jamie Alguire on Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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