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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:06 am 
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SovereignHobbies
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Hi,

Glad you've received it :)

When we acquired Colourcoats we had no carryover inventory of RN03 507C. The first batch we had made, when it was still decanted externally arrived with a creamy colour too it. It was still some time until I acquired Snyder & Short chips. The first thing we did was rematch 507C to that which returned the bluishness rather than the creaminess which somehow happened before we owned it.

That will be what you have.

We've actually just tweaked it again but not drastically. The Snyder & Short shade measures out at approximately 54% light reflectance value but we have another draft paper in discussion and hopefully soon to be released discussing the 507s, G10 and G45. One of the two significant findings from that work is that 507C is without doubt darker than Snyder and Short has it. Not by a huge margin, but enough for it to swap places with the lighter MS4 and MS4a on camouflage schemes on B&W pics when trying to interpret them.

Image

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http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:06 am 
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In all my reference only one has AP507C and MS4 at the same time (which could be an error :) ) so I'm almost ready to conclude MS4 replaced AP507C as a colour by statistics alone :wave_1:


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:41 am 
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SovereignHobbies wrote:
Hi,

Glad you've received it :)

When we acquired Colourcoats we had no carryover inventory of RN03 507C. The first batch we had made, when it was still decanted externally arrived with a creamy colour too it. It was still some time until I acquired Snyder & Short chips. The first thing we did was rematch 507C to that which returned the bluishness rather than the creaminess which somehow happened before we owned it.

That will be what you have.

We've actually just tweaked it again but not drastically. The Snyder & Short shade measures out at approximately 54% light reflectance value but we have another draft paper in discussion and hopefully soon to be released discussing the 507s, G10 and G45. One of the two significant findings from that work is that 507C is without doubt darker than Snyder and Short has it. Not by a huge margin, but enough for it to swap places with the lighter MS4 and MS4a on camouflage schemes on B&W pics when trying to interpret them.

Image



That makes sense, I wanted to multi quote the last to replies but couldn't.

I swear that many years ago I received a tin of 507C from WEM that was markedly different from later tins of the same paint they supplied. It got more yellow. All the paint charts I have seen online and from samples show 507C to have the shade that your current paint actually is. It even resembles the chart on the back of the Raven Camouflage perspective books.

As for EJ's response. Is it at all possible that somehow the WEM 507C got mixed up with the MS4 at some stage as it does look very similar although slightly different which could explain that little one away if it is what happened.

The new 507C paint is likely to change things on the Prince of Wales thread maybe.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:14 am 
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Sutho wrote:
As for EJ's response. Is it at all possible that somehow the WEM 507C got mixed up with the MS4 at some stage as it does look very similar although slightly different which could explain that little one away if it is what happened.


I was referring to my old spreadsheet with all the patterns by Raven and what official pattern's I have copies of. There is no MS4 and AP507C next to each other.

http://ontheslipway.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Camo-summary.xlsx

Sutho wrote:
The new 507C paint is likely to change things on the Prince of Wales thread maybe.


Attachment:
Image11.jpg


I still have MS4a pegged for the lightest colour. The colour footage doesn't completely match the new/correct B5 so I'd have to be careful, but the "new" 507C appears an even better match with the main superstructure colour (D in our usual parlance ;) ).


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:27 am 
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At the risk of frustration, I wouldn't waste time on Prince of Wales again yet...

MS4 and MS4a need adjustment too but we haven't reached conclusions on that yet (other than that Snyder & Short doesn't align well with ADM212/124's contents at Kew). B6 also is not supported by findings at Kew.

I would advise not investing any more effort in trying to reassess camouflage schemes until such time as a full new colour palette is determined and all shades can be reconsidered relative to each other. Whilst there are still significant hue and tone anomalies outstanding I think it's more likely than not that any analysis now will just lead people up the proverbial garden path.

We're fairly close to that point, but not quite there yet.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:44 am 
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Oh, don't worry; until Ms4/Ms4a/B6 are addressed we cannot go further.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:28 pm 
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EJFoeth wrote:
Oh, don't worry; until Ms4/Ms4a/B6 are addressed we cannot go further.


I am just going to wait it out and see what happens.

Their new B5 paint looks nice on the Belfast model and does not clash with the other colours.

I dare say that with regards to those paints it is possible we have had many tins and samples misidentified over the years and until we have people working on it get to the bottom of it then there will be no further results. That said I think the new 507C looks good on Prince of Wales. I have already put small amounts of that on and it looks better than the old version.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:59 am 
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SovereignHobbies wrote:
At the risk of frustration, I wouldn't waste time on Prince of Wales again yet...

MS4 and MS4a need adjustment too but we haven't reached conclusions on that yet (other than that Snyder & Short doesn't align well with ADM212/124's contents at Kew). B6 also is not supported by findings at Kew.

I would advise not investing any more effort in trying to reassess camouflage schemes until such time as a full new colour palette is determined and all shades can be reconsidered relative to each other. Whilst there are still significant hue and tone anomalies outstanding I think it's more likely than not that any analysis now will just lead people up the proverbial garden path.

We're fairly close to that point, but not quite there yet.



After painting a bit with the new 507C light Admiralty grey, it does seem to look more realistic and resembles the artwork and paintings depicting RN ships. I am glad that has been fixed. Not sure how the old WEM could make such an error to have a yellowish tint to it.

The B5 looks great on HMS Belfast. As far as Prince of Wales goes then this gets complicated and having discussed it with the others keen on this ship we are keen to wait it out. The new 507C really helps us a lot and confirms some things. Even for the colour photo of HMS Howe in the Suez Canal, this really matches your new 507C much better than the WEM did even for a colour photo that may be faded or have incorrect true to life colour.

It is a frustrating time knowing that I may have many more hours ahead of my repainting models to fix them. I am lucky I assemble them in such a way now that they can be dismantled for paint touch up jobs.

Is there anything you can tell us about what other colours are facing a change? I am keen to hear about B6 and if the paint chips or research you have done links it to any other sample in the current range. Is it true that B55 or B30 was the later war version of this paint.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:47 am 
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I think as far as Prince of Wales goes, my personal view is that there isn't any B5 or B6 on it. I personally have read one genuine wartime report on Prince of Wales' camouflage (observation trials) and it described only its categorisation of Admiralty Disruptive pattern. It didn't record the colours.

Unless someone knows better, I think any notion that it had B5 on it came long after the war when people trying to interpret the legacy images already had an incorrect understanding of what B5 was.

For example, had I mislead my daughter from her earliest years by telling her that grass was orange, and that any time she saw the colour green I told her it was called orange, then when I asked her what colour a lime was, she'd tell me it was orange because she had the name attached to the wrong colour.

There are plenty good quality images and film stills of smaller vessels, landing craft, coastal boats and so on (even King George V is well photographed) which are so obviously in B5 or B6 that we know that when B5 or B6 were genuinely present we really can't mistake it. That colour still of Prince of Wales has lots of grey on it. One grey looks slightly bluish compared to the others which look warmer, but that doesn't make it B5 in my personal opinion unless the B5 were so heavily chalked and faded as to render it almost unrecognisable. I think the bits we've been told are B5 were actually Home Fleet Grey. I think it only looks bluish because the warmer, lighter greys are MS3 and MS4a. Also there's a bit of psychology involved. We've got a preconceived idea now that B5 is there so we're looking for it and trying to peg the name to whichever colour looks most like it - regardless whether that colour far better fits that which goes by another name.

Unfortunately the collective "we" also think MS4 and MS4a are also quite strongly coloured. The ones I saw at Kew aren't - they're rather non-descript light greyish shades. They're not completely neutral, but they're not strongly coloured either. Neither are the ones Richard matched for me at Portsmouth.

Furthermore, 507C is a touch darker than we have understood, so in reality it was darker than MS4a, but the colours we thought we knew until recently have this the other way round.

When this is all over, I reckon we will agree that HMS Prince of Wales was wearing something more like white, MS4a, 507C (or maybe MS4), MS3, 507A and MS1 than the schemes we see prescribed now including B5.


As for which colours are suspect still, the truth is that they're all being considered but that we have more confidence in some than others. As a general statement, anything you know now that is yellowish I am suspicious of. We have lots of greenish blues that should be blues, and we have warm greys that should be neutral. This is not too far from Luftwaffe colours really - for years modellers have thought of RLM65 Hellblau as turquoise based on some decades-old relics and celluloid test cards known in the 1940s to yellow within a decade. When Jurgen Kiroff gathered the real recipes, original pigment types and original machinery used to make the paints he recreated them all and lo and behold, the typically impassionate German description "Hellblau" was given to a paint because it was light blue, not a turquoise. It's disappointing how much momentum these fallacies gain really. If Hellblau was turquoise the Germans wouldn't have called it Hellblau. The pigments were also known for years - any idiot could tell you white and ultramarine mixed together will give you a light blue, but because someone dug some wreckage out of a garden and matched it, the world now thinks RLM65 was turquoise.

I'm ranting a bit now :big_grin:

Off the top of my head, ones I still want to verify or update include:
B6
MS4
MS4a
G20 (it matches Portsmouth's sample very well, but there's something we don't fully understand yet)
B20
B30
G55
B55

There's also a 13% LRV version of Home Fleet Grey coming out soon as a new colour not replacing anything existing, but rather to allow the modeller to choose the look they want where the original paint was 507A or 507B (or pre-made matt paint bought in to be completely correct).

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HMS Imperial D09 1/350
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:06 am 
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SovereignHobbies wrote:
When this is all over, I reckon we will agree that HMS Prince of Wales was wearing something more like white, MS4a, 507C (or maybe MS4), MS3, 507A and MS1 than the schemes we see prescribed now including B5.


Re Prince of Wales, after you released the new B5, I have been thinking similar to you that the second darkest colour is either 507A or 507B. I am not keen to waste too much time pondering over it.

That said I am satisfied with the new 507C light grey, you made no reference of 507A dark grey in your reply. Should we all assume here that this colour is not held under suspicion by you?


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 1:05 pm 
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Sutho wrote:
SovereignHobbies wrote:
When this is all over, I reckon we will agree that HMS Prince of Wales was wearing something more like white, MS4a, 507C (or maybe MS4), MS3, 507A and MS1 than the schemes we see prescribed now including B5.


Re Prince of Wales, after you released the new B5, I have been thinking similar to you that the second darkest colour is either 507A or 507B. I am not keen to waste too much time pondering over it.

That said I am satisfied with the new 507C light grey, you made no reference of 507A dark grey in your reply. Should we all assume here that this colour is not held under suspicion by you?


I am fairly comfortable with RN01 507A and it is representative of the real life 507A at its 10% LRV value. In some references 507A was allowed to be as light as 13% which makes a fair visual difference to it (but nowhere near as light as RN02 is). This was later simplified down to a flat statement of 10%.

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James Duff
Sovereign Hobbies Ltd
http://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk

Current build:
HMS Imperial D09 1/350
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:50 am 
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SovereignHobbies wrote:
When this is all over, I reckon we will agree that HMS Prince of Wales was wearing something more like white, MS4a, 507C (or maybe MS4), MS3, 507A and MS1 than the schemes we see prescribed now including B5.


Re Prince of Wales, after you released the new B5, I have been thinking similar to you that the second darkest colour is either 507A or 507B. I am not keen to waste too much time pondering over it.

That said I am satisfied with the new 507C light grey, you made no reference of 507A dark grey in your reply. Should we all assume here that this colour is not held under suspicion by you?[/quote]

I am fairly comfortable with RN01 507A and it is representative of the real life 507A at its 10% LRV value. In some references 507A was allowed to be as light as 13% which makes a fair visual difference to it (but nowhere near as light as RN02 is). This was later simplified down to a flat statement of 10%.[/quote]

I think you are on the right track with the new 507A and 507C. Other references have stated that if you mix the two paints together 50/50 it is supposed to be the 507B shade. Well I have done that roughly (not precise) with the new paints I acquired (basically a small drop) and it does closely resemble 507B.

Please keep us posted re new paint updates as frustrating as it is waiting and finding out mistakes it is well worth it in the end.

There may be some things us regulars can discuss in the separate Prince of Wales thread now that we have some concrete information as to how the paints are supposed to be. We may be able to fill in some gaps but still have a wait ahead of us. I do not think on Prince of Wales 507A and MS1 could be next to each other given the vast contrast in existing photos. Other references name MS2 as another candidate for the Admiralty Disruptive Scheme which may be a candidate now that B5 can be ruled out given the colour slide above. I totally agree with the psychology of identification you mention above and it makes absolute sense.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:49 am 
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Regarding M.S.2, it was so close to 507A that it served no purpose hence it had no equivalent in the B and G series that followed. It was pretty much the same tone as 507A, just lacking the blue component.

But - Home Fleet Grey (507A) was still allowed to be between 10-13% LRV in 1941. Those 3 points make a big difference.

There is also the matter of the 507A/C 50/50 emergency mix. That could also be a candidate for the bluish looking grey on Prince of Wales.

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James Duff
Sovereign Hobbies Ltd
http://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk

Current build:
HMS Imperial D09 1/350
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:53 pm 
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SovereignHobbies wrote:
Regarding M.S.2, it was so close to 507A that it served no purpose hence it had no equivalent in the B and G series that followed. It was pretty much the same tone as 507A, just lacking the blue component.

But - Home Fleet Grey (507A) was still allowed to be between 10-13% LRV in 1941. Those 3 points make a big difference.

There is also the matter of the 507A/C 50/50 emergency mix. That could also be a candidate for the bluish looking grey on Prince of Wales.


Can I please ask if you are revising the B55 and B30 I think they are from memory that are a light blue colour similar but not quite identical to the WEM B6 which you are now reviewing.

The reason I am asking is because I am looking into the pattern of HMS Belfast. The museum ship now as it sits in London has a light blue paint on it which the references say is B6 (light blue). Assuming you are correct with your research then the blue on the HMS Belfast as depicted presently in London no way resembles what you posted in the Prince of Wales thread. That is leading me to suspect that it may be your tin RN-17 (B55) 1943 year light greenish blue or RN-21 (B30) medium grey green.

I have looked at how your new B5 would look on the HMS Belfast on the bow and also on the funnel and to be honest feel it could be a possible colour that was on the HMS Belfast. The surrounding paints of 507A does not make the colour B5 so striking when it is painted next to another dark colour.

I am just wondering if the above paints are under revision so that I can either include or drop them from my list.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:37 am 
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Hi,

They are not currently in the process of being revised, but both of them are under review. I have reason to suspect both of them are non-characteristic of the original shades, but I don't really want to talk about why until I can reconcile everything gathered thus far.

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Current build:
HMS Imperial D09 1/350
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151


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