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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:52 pm 
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SovereignHobbies
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Hi folks,

I've written one tonight, and this one does not have anyone elses' reputation at stake so it all happens much quicker. The reality is that the written references for this one are a little thinner so it's more of an interpretational exercise than a clear paper trail - but the reality is that the findings are perhaps less contentious than some of the previous shades we've written about that have carried more fundamental anomalies.

Hope it's useful?

https://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk/pages/royal-navy-colours-of-world-war-two-the-standard-camouflage-colours-1941-1943


***As this has been a 3 hour hatchet job I do reserve the right to pull and edit this should I realise I've messed something up! ***

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:36 am 
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SovereignHobbies wrote:
Hi folks,

I've written one tonight, and this one does not have anyone elses' reputation at stake so it all happens much quicker. The reality is that the written references for this one are a little thinner so it's more of an interpretational exercise than a clear paper trail - but the reality is that the findings are perhaps less contentious than some of the previous shades we've written about that have carried more fundamental anomalies.

Hope it's useful?

https://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk/pages/royal-navy-colours-of-world-war-two-the-standard-camouflage-colours-1941-1943


***As this has been a 3 hour hatchet job I do reserve the right to pull and edit this should I realise I've messed something up! ***


I find it useful. There is lack of 507b on that chart, but may be its ok since you assume it is same of 507A just different reflective? Or?

I also think the idea that they have these degrees of relfectivity is so much overlooked by most modellers, even top ones.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:30 am 
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pascalemod wrote:

I find it useful. There is lack of 507b on that chart, but may be its ok since you assume it is same of 507A just different reflective? Or?

I also think the idea that they have these degrees of relfectivity is so much overlooked by most modellers, even top ones.


Hi :smallsmile:

Two reasons for that:

1) Perhaps pedantically, 507B was not in use in 1941 when the Standard Camouflage Colours were - so you should never see 507B mentioned in a scheme with MS1,2,3 etc
2) 507B is explained in this one posted a couple of days earlier :thumbs_up_1: https://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk/pages/royal-navy-colours-of-world-war-two-pattern-507s-g10-and-g45

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:21 pm 
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Fascinating stuff. Thanks for all your efforts.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 4:23 am 
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MartinJQuinn wrote:
Fascinating stuff. Thanks for all your efforts.


+1 !!

and what about deck colors in a 507a/b ship ? would they also be in 507a/b ? (I in particular think to HMS HOOD in her late guise)

thx !

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 6:09 am 
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Normally I'd say, no, the deck is a much darker AP507A. But when I look at this I see no difference between the deck and the rest of the ship. Hmmmm...

Attachment:
deck.jpg


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 7:27 am 
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Put simply, I am uncertain.

EDIT: I take it we are talking about steel decks in particular, yes?

There is a record about new bought-in civvie made non slip deck paints and where to order them from, dated (without checking back) to mid 1941.

I recall it lists some colours available as black, dark grey, Home Fleet Grey and then went on to Light Grey etc.

So the same shade as 507A/B is a valid possibility, but it's possible there was a darker grey in use too.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 3:52 pm 
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Just wondering if anyone has seen this colour footage yet from D-Day which was filmed from the HMS Belfast - at 5:28 there is a full colour front on of the bridge and turrets. In earlier scenes there is clearly blue on the forward funnel. There are other ships depicted in colour as well. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/wor ... eased.html

Plenty of other footage like this around on youtube if you use the correct search parameters. Apparently it was filmed by a Hollywood producer and recently discovered in the last 5 years.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:37 am 
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Sutho wrote:
Just wondering if anyone has seen this colour footage yet from D-Day which was filmed from the HMS Belfast - at 5:28 there is a full colour front on of the bridge and turrets. In earlier scenes there is clearly blue on the forward funnel. There are other ships depicted in colour as well. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/wor ... eased.html

Plenty of other footage like this around on youtube if you use the correct search parameters. Apparently it was filmed by a Hollywood producer and recently discovered in the last 5 years.


Being 1944 it will be outwith the scope of the paper linked above - but the blue on the funnel looks to be B15 and very reminiscent of the samples that both Sean (Cag) and myself made independently using the AFO 2106/43 formula for B15.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 8:46 pm 
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SovereignHobbies wrote:
Sutho wrote:
Just wondering if anyone has seen this colour footage yet from D-Day which was filmed from the HMS Belfast - at 5:28 there is a full colour front on of the bridge and turrets. In earlier scenes there is clearly blue on the forward funnel. There are other ships depicted in colour as well. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/wor ... eased.html

Plenty of other footage like this around on youtube if you use the correct search parameters. Apparently it was filmed by a Hollywood producer and recently discovered in the last 5 years.


Being 1944 it will be outwith the scope of the paper linked above - but the blue on the funnel looks to be B15 and very reminiscent of the samples that both Sean (Cag) and myself made independently using the AFO 2106/43 formula for B15.


I was hoping you would say that and it is what I had suspected the funnel colour to be myself. I believe the Belfast was in that scheme from 1943 onward. The published colours were 507C, B6, B5, and 507A. As you see the ship in London is similar to how it was painted with the B5/B15 on the bow and alternate side of each funnel.

I am thinking there is not enough evidence to suggest that the WEM version of B6 was on the ship and think your B6 looks better, but I have not seen enough of the ship in colour to make that judgement call. That being said I can also see in the same frame the aft superstructure of the ship in shadow at 10 seconds in which appear to be a darker blue colour than the funnel but this darkness is because of the shadow. At 46 seconds in onward it shows the bow bridge structure where B6 was supposedly painted on but I think the shadow of the colour photo makes it impossible to tell for sure what colour from your new charts it could be.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 1:30 am 
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I think Dick told me that when painting Belfast for display the IWM somehow believed that buying paint to BS381C specs would be cheaper than having it matched to other colours, hence Belfast now is painted in Dark and Light Admiralty Greys, PRU Blue etc.

This forum software is a bit long in the tooth now so I can't tag Richard to double check, but I'm sure we discussed that over a nice cold pint of beer near Duxford last July!

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:18 pm 
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That's the file corrected in a few obvious places now. I turned the colour table near the end round 90deg and enlarged it to fill a page. It's a little clearer now as a result.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 12:50 am 
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SovereignHobbies wrote:
I think Dick told me that when painting Belfast for display the IWM somehow believed that buying paint to BS381C specs would be cheaper than having it matched to other colours, hence Belfast now is painted in Dark and Light Admiralty Greys, PRU Blue etc.

This forum software is a bit long in the tooth now so I can't tag Richard to double check, but I'm sure we discussed that over a nice cold pint of beer near Duxford last July!


That is right - I did!

For reasons of economy Belfast is painted today in off-the-shelf BS381C maritime paints: #632 Dark Admiralty grey, #636 PR Blue, #697 Light Admiralty grey and #627 Light Aircraft grey


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 4:26 pm 
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dick wrote:
SovereignHobbies wrote:
I think Dick told me that when painting Belfast for display the IWM somehow believed that buying paint to BS381C specs would be cheaper than having it matched to other colours, hence Belfast now is painted in Dark and Light Admiralty Greys, PRU Blue etc.

This forum software is a bit long in the tooth now so I can't tag Richard to double check, but I'm sure we discussed that over a nice cold pint of beer near Duxford last July!


That is right - I did!

For reasons of economy Belfast is painted today in off-the-shelf BS381C maritime paints: #632 Dark Admiralty grey, #636 PR Blue, #697 Light Admiralty grey and #627 Light Aircraft grey


Thanks to both of you regarding this.

Now that we have some new information re HMS Belfast is it time we started a HMS Belfast camo thread??


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:25 pm 
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Quote:

Thanks to both of you regarding this.

Now that we have some new information re HMS Belfast is it time we started a HMS Belfast camo thread??


Needed !!

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:05 am 
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mister me wrote:
Quote:

Thanks to both of you regarding this.

Now that we have some new information re HMS Belfast is it time we started a HMS Belfast camo thread??


Needed !!


Created and in the camouflage & coatings section. I have even drawn a picture of the ship we can all work on.

I hope Sovereign does not mind the use of their colours to work on the ship and figure out if the references are correct and also when the scheme changed.


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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 6:56 pm 
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EJFoeth wrote:
Normally I'd say, no, the deck is a much darker AP507A. But when I look at this I see no difference between the deck and the rest of the ship. Hmmmm...

Attachment:
deck.jpg


For what its worth the HMS Hood association is adamant that the ship was painted entirely in 507B with A turret in 507C and B turret and housing in 507A at time of loss. They describe the 507B painting as a "temporary medium grey paint scheme" and seem to be up to date on their website with what Sovereign is doing with their paints and what research they have done.

http://www.hmshood.com/hoodtoday/models ... dpaint.htm

Further they seem to have photos from the wreck of Hood that they claim confirm for them that the ship was painted in 507B.

The link is above and seems to go into great detail about the paint and what evidence they have to support their conclusions.

They claim most of the steel decks or lower decks were corticone.


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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 1:30 am 
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Actually the Hood site is not following the latest research by Sovereign Hobbies yet, and the colours themselves follow from the Snyder & Short charts. So sooner or later the HMS Hood site too will have to go through the latest material and colour and adapt their web page accordingly.

Photographs from early 1941 do indeeed show very large contrast changes between various turrets and the superstructure (A turret very light, B-turret and the spotting top very dark) and this is an example:

Attachment:
Hood 2.jpg


Note that by the time she was sunk most of these contrast differences had all been painted out with the exception of the spotting top and DCT. So I do wonder with the emergency mix of AP507A and AP507C the crew might just have mixed it poorly. Minor contrast differences are observed all over the ship, though none as large as on the main turrets.

Corticene was probably present on the decks of the main superstructure but there is very little footage; the colour films released over the past years seem to suggest just that? Might also have been semtex and the (main steel) decks do appear to be very light in tone.


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Last edited by EJFoeth on Wed May 02, 2018 2:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 2:35 am 
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Something is ringing a bell here... I *think* (will need to confirm) that we may have a copy of a memo which *may* have been from Capt. Tennant of HMS Repulse musing over how quickly the Home Fleet Grey paints in use at the time (this will be circa 1940 I think) darkened.

The context of the letter/memo I am thinking of was along the lines of "shouldn't we consider making a lighter paint such that it was the shade of Home Fleet Grey most of the time, rather than only for a few days after painting it on?"

I recall seeing no response or follow up on the subject though.

Never the less, it would surprise me not at all that fresh linseed oil paint contrasted with older linseed oil paint - particularly on areas high up that are exposed to boiler emissions even forward of the funnels when stationary or at low speed or in typical UK-locale strong winds which aren't too fussy about which way the ship is trying to leave its exhaust fumes behind.

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 3:33 am 
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I am wondering if Hood Association know something we don't know or are overlooking because I keep seeing on their painting section the terms "emergency paint", "temporary medium grey", "patchy grey", and so on. I cannot copy and past and quote due to copyright settings on their website. It is as if the author writing the piece knew full well that 507A was Home Fleet Grey and that there was a matt and gloss finish of the same scheme. As EJ says above they make it clear that it was a uniform scheme by the battle with Bismarck. It will be interesting to keep watching this one.


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