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PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2020 1:16 pm 
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wouldn't trust the Nevada film as color is slightly off as the white stripes on the flag are not really white. the sky is too dark for a sunny day in the Wee Vee film.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2020 8:46 pm 
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Jeff Sharp wrote:
Here is some of the footage discussed above directly from the archives.
....
And here is the Nevada footage showing that thin blue line at the top of the boot topping very well.
....
California footage:
....
West Virginia footage:
......


I think all of them are a good representation of the situation at least you get to make a judgment based upon a continuous set of footages that show different lighting conditions and how they affected filming...

Especially the scene where the children are being led out of the school and into their air raid ditches.... you have clouds going over which shows how dark it would get when the clouds were blocking the sunlight and how bright they would change to when they finally passed by.....

IMHO, it tends to reinforce my opinions on the ships colors especially the Nevada's footage where you get a direct comparison between 5D dark grey ships superstructure, (even though very worse for wear) & 5-S/N on the tug and the repaired ships hull just above the boot topping...

All the same light, same angles, same camera. If any of the colors are shifted, (which they probably are) they are all shifted the same amount... gives a very good reference between them as to how they compare with each other...

Even at this age, or the age at which they were digitized, the color shift doesn't effect the image perception that much....

Nevada was in 5-D, California most probably in 5-D, Wee Vee in 5-S, Arizona in 5-S.... It's a shame that the Maryland and Tennessee were gone at the time of these films cause it would have settled it for those as well....

Any way, I believe these films serve to strengthen my opinions....

Thanks Jeff for posting them, I know it took some serious time and effort to find them.... (the archives being what they are)

EG


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:16 am 
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This is a rare look at USS Whitney. She is backing out of Dry dock #2 on April 23, 1942 and is freshly painted. She was in MS-1 at the time of the attack. The sunken Oglala is in the foreground.
Image


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2020 1:41 pm 
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Given the date, with the orders in hand, that would have to be Ms.11 overall 5-N Navy Blue in bright sunlight... remember, Ships-2 rev. 1 Ms.11 was ordered as overall overall blue scheme, with the exception for those with 5-L tops to remain that way.... Generally, after 12/16/41 predominantly most ships were being repainted in overall scheme.... The lighter tops went away very quickly....

It's one of the confusing things as to when the individual ships actually went to overall scheme and overpainted the Ms. 1 tops...... There is no hard and fast orders on it as a rule......

Another very nice shot as well, thank you....

Another thing to point out, is that 5-N Navy Blue, given the light conditions being bright sunlight could appear as bright as 5-S Sea Blue, light conditions being overcast, could appear as dark as 5-D Dark Grey..... almost a chameleon type of paint..... (I'm sure it wasn't lost on those that made the decisions on it)

That really creates problems in identifying which color a ship was actually in....


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2020 3:42 pm 
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Quote:
Wee Vee in 5-S


I'm not as certain about that. This pic of WeeVee post attack is a cropping from a photo that Jeff posted on the Arizona thread about 2 years ago. I think it was part of a film clip.

To me, it seems clear that there are two tones of paint on her, and also to me, it looks very much like the hull is in 5-D, while the aft turrets and other parts are in 5-S. FWIW.

( What I think is Lexington and another BB are in the background, by the drydocks.)


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2020 4:10 pm 
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Thank Jeff for explanation. :thumbs_up_1:

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2020 4:23 pm 
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Pennsylvania, California were definitely in 5D, I think Nevada was too:
Attachment:
80G19943 BB-38 in drydockR.jpg

Attachment:
80G32745R.jpg

Attachment:
80G32740.jpg

Was Oklahoma in 5D too? Check out her ships boat in this photo (unless that's dark blue), which makes Mary look lighter (but that could be the sun?)
Attachment:
80G19941.jpg

However, I'm leaning towards Maryland being painted in 5D as well:
Attachment:
80G32417crop.jpg

Though I do admit, some photos she looks lighter, at least in the superstructure:
Attachment:
80G32489.jpg

Attachment:
80G32773crop.jpg

Looks like TN is pretty dark in these photo
Attachment:
80G32646.jpg

Attachment:
80G32426crop.jpg


Some years ago Ron Smith published a document - for one day, on the anniversary of the attack - that listed what colors the battleline was, based on documents he found at NARA II. Unfortunately, I didn't have the foresight to save it, and he took it down.

IIRC, he said some of the ships, according to what he had found, were in transition. I believe he said WeeVee had a 5D hull, 5-O superstructure and 5-L tops. I know he said one of the other Big 5 battleships was partially redone in 5S, but I don't remember which one. Again, this was according to the documentation he had found. One of these days, if NARA II ever reopens and I get to go back, I'm going to go down to the 2nd floor and look for these documents myself.

Photos are all from NARA II, courtesy of Ernie Arroyo.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2020 7:00 pm 
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MartinJQuinn wrote:
Was Oklahoma in 5D too? Check out her ships boat in this photo (unless that's dark blue)


Looking at the ships boats definitely is very helpful. One would think that if a transition into 5-S was complete then the boats would also be 5-S. Arizona's boats were not in 5-S.

Image

Image

Just for fun I also put together this montage from film footage to show the complete aft sections of WeeVee and Ariz as a comparison.
Image

Notice in this pic how the sun really changes the appearance of the turrets compared to the montage above which mostly has no sun effect. The barbette and raft however remain dark.
Image


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2020 8:19 pm 
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WeeVee's turrets don't look much darker than the Kingfisher there.

Regarding the boats. I thought of this after I posted my comments about Okie's boat: if they were in the water and being used while the ships were tied up, they'd probably be among the last things to be (re)painted.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2020 9:29 pm 
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This is Detroit's boat passing in front of Maryland. Detroit was in 5-S.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2020 10:12 pm 
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& the bottom of the Oklahoma's hull is supposedly red.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2020 9:45 am 
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Here is a fun detail about USS Hoga.
Image

Her decks were painted in the linoleum brown color commonly seen on ships. You can see her lower deck color through the rope access hole on the side of her hull here and a bit of it on her upper deck.
Image

From overhead, it would look similar to these tugs.
Image


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2020 1:22 am 
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DavidP wrote:
& the bottom of the Oklahoma's hull is supposedly red.


It was, freshly scraped and painted as well.......


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2020 1:50 am 
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MartinJQuinn wrote:
Pennsylvania, California were definitely in 5D, I think Nevada was too:

Was Oklahoma in 5D too? Check out her ships boat in this photo (unless that's dark blue), which makes Mary look lighter (but that could be the sun?)

However, I'm leaning towards Maryland being painted in 5D as well:

Though I do admit, some photos she looks lighter, at least in the superstructure:

Looks like TN is pretty dark in these photo


Some years ago Ron Smith published a document - for one day, on the anniversary of the attack - that listed what colors the battleline was, based on documents he found at NARA II. Unfortunately, I didn't have the foresight to save it, and he took it down.

IIRC, he said some of the ships, according to what he had found, were in transition. I believe he said WeeVee had a 5D hull, 5-O superstructure and 5-L tops. I know he said one of the other Big 5 battleships was partially redone in 5S, but I don't remember which one. Again, this was according to the documentation he had found. One of these days, if NARA II ever reopens and I get to go back, I'm going to go down to the 2nd floor and look for these documents myself.

Photos are all from NARA II, courtesy of Ernie Arroyo.


Okie was in 5-D there is absolutely no doubt in my mind, about 12 years ago I found a color chip from her in the archives, much like the Enterprise's 5-D color chip stumbled across recently.... only this one was dated a month or so after the attack I believe..... No picture is ever going to convince me otherwise. I have been looking through my archives for the pic I took of it, I know I have it, just haven't located it yet.... (definitely a priority for me, I hate losing track of stuff I've already found)

I would have loved to see Ron's document that would have resolved much in my opinion....

I'm pretty much convinced that California and Nevada were in 5-D as well.... Pennsy I'm still unsure about although I will admit that the evidence we have leans towards 5-D. What your saying about Wee Vee is interesting as 5-D in the right light conditions could clearly present as very dark blue and 5-O was definitely a blue shade of grey that in similar condition could appear quite dark... I still believe she was in blue as well as the Tennessee.....

So a few weeks ago I was saying my belief that Maryland was in blue is now back to the I don't know position, although there are some credible color photography of her showing a large amount of blue...

And the debate goes on........... {smile}

EG


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2020 10:44 am 
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Egilman wrote:
So a few weeks ago I was saying my belief that Maryland was in blue is now back to the I don't know position, although there are some credible color photography of her showing a large amount of blue...


What "credible color photography" are you referring to? Can you post it?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2020 10:51 am 
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Jeff Sharp wrote:
Egilman wrote:
So a few weeks ago I was saying my belief that Maryland was in blue is now back to the I don't know position, although there are some credible color photography of her showing a large amount of blue...


What "credible color photography" are you referring to? Can you post it?


I already have, but I believe you rejected it... Even though I did post it, I've back tracked a bit on that declaration... We are entitled to change our opinions aren't we?


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:40 pm 
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A tiny little camouflage detail about the battleships of BATDIV 2 and 4 that was different from the battleships of BATDIV 1 was the color of their railing stanchions. BATDIV 2 and 4 battleships had all painted their stanchions presumably light gray. Not quite sure why. Maybe because it cut down on how hot they got in the sun?

Tennessee and West Virginia
Image

West Virginia
Image

Maryland
Image
Image

California
Image
Image

Pennsylvania
Image


Last edited by Jeff Sharp on Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:23 pm 
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That's a great catch, Jeff.

Dan Kaplan - take note!

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:37 pm 
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:big_eyes:

(*$%&*%(*@)#%^+@#%^!!!

Well, that's on December 7th. My WeeVee and CA are depicted on December 5th.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:59 pm 
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Sorry Dan, I don't mean to give you extra work on your California build but here is more for you to consider. Look in the lower left of this still. The camera man was up on the Navigation bridge on California with his camera pointing aft. He pans across the deck and catches a little bit of her flag bridge below. The deck of the flag bridge is linoleum brown.
Image


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