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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 4:24 am 
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MartinJQuinn wrote:
Jeff Sharp wrote:
I don’t do Facebook. Can you give me the cliff notes on the discussion?

...
The info about using 5H as a pre-coat barrier in the last screen shot might explain the appearance of San Francisco's paint work on the day of the attack - kudos for Dan Kaplan for noticing that.

It supports Mr. Bruner's testimony about properties of the "lighter, bluish color": "...It took about three coats to cover up the old color; boy, it was awful!..."
Soure: http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index.php?/topic/264462-uss-arizona-paint-colors/&tab=comments#comment-2511994


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 4:38 am 
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66misos wrote:
Hi Egilman,

Btw., is really known photo of USS Arizona dated Dec. 5, 1941 out there?


I'll take your word for the color stuff, like I said I'm no expert and can only relate what it seems to me happens to images when I use auto balance....

What I said in the earlier post is that I have an image purports to be the Arizona in the Pearl Harbor Harbor channel returning on morning of Dec 5th.....

Now we all have searched images enough to know why I used the word purports, not all dates on images (even in the National Archive) are accurate....

I'm holding it for use in my build of the Banner AZ in the future, it has a beautiful wake pattern in relatively calm waters and is very clear.... (definitely very late '41 fit)

So far I've been unable to corroborate the 12/05/41 date the source attributes to it, but I still have a few avenues of inquiry to go before I declare it accurate or a mis-date...

And yes it is a grey toned B&W image in overcast light that appears to be very light paint... much lighter than the November Dry Dock #1 pic... That's no accurate indication of what color it was though, but it does show very clearly as a fresh paint job...

I will post it one way or the other once I'm ready, but not until then...


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 4:41 am 
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66misos wrote:
It supports Mr. Bruner's testimony about properties of the "lighter, bluish color": "...It took about three coats to cover up the old color; boy, it was awful!..."
Soure: http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index.php?/topic/264462-uss-arizona-paint-colors/&tab=comments#comment-2511994


Yes it does doesn't it, it also supports his statements that it was the crew that was turned out to repaint her as the undercoat technique was only done by yard personnel...


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 10:32 am 
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Jeff Sharp wrote:
My questions to both of them were: Is their fractured piece the very piece referenced in the March 18th document? If it is, then how is it possible that it is painted 5-D if the ship was not painted in that camo yet?

Valid question. I want to say that I had read somewhere that Enterprise was repainted into Standard Gray for Dive Bomber, then repainted back into 5D. I don't know if that was at the studio's request or the navy's. Of course, I can't recall where I read that, but it was in an article or posting about the making of the movie. :doh_1:

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:34 am 
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It would be very interesting but highly unlikely that the Navy would repaint an entire Aircraft Carrier back into Standard Navy Gray just for the filming after she was painted into MS-1 camo.
This is an excerpt on the Wikipedia page about the movie. The film crew had access to Enterprise for a week starting on March 20th.
Ron did claim in his “5-D vs 5-S” article that he posted on this site that her decks were repainted mahogany brown specifically for the movie but even that seems hard to believe.

Image


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 12:32 pm 
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Jeff Sharp wrote:
It would be very interesting but highly unlikely that the Navy would repaint an entire Aircraft Carrier back into Standard Navy Gray just for the filming after she was painted into MS-1 camo.

Agreed, and I may be confusing the painting of the AIRCRAFT for the movie with the SHIP.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 1:51 pm 
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Something else to consider about USS ENTERPRISE in the Spring of 1941. USS ENTERPRISE was selected to be evaluated in the Pacific Fleet Camo Experiments (Experiment K, held in May-June 1941), with another ship's profile painted on her side. Many people have tried in vain to find photos of that scheme. There are brief descriptions of it, but that is all. Apparently, Experiment K wasn't left on for long, because July observations of ENTERPRISE state she was painted in Ms 1.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 4:17 pm 
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Isn’t there even a June color shot of her in MS-1? I thought I remember seeing one.

Found it.
Image

Image


Last edited by Jeff Sharp on Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 5:11 pm 
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MartinJQuinn wrote:
Jeff Sharp wrote:
It would be very interesting but highly unlikely that the Navy would repaint an entire Aircraft Carrier back into Standard Navy Gray just for the filming after she was painted into MS-1 camo.

Agreed, and I may be confusing the painting of the AIRCRAFT for the movie with the SHIP.


Actually they repainted the aircraft in spite of the movie, one of the issues of special consideration the Navy gave the production was to not paint several of each type aircraft so the movie would have continuity with parts already filmed... They also allowed the production the use of a brand new SBD to travel with the movie premier's to use as a recruiting prop....

The Navy bent over backwards to accommodate the production despite the heavy preparations for war they were undergoing.....


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 4:17 am 
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Another bit of confusing information about the enterprise and the movie "Dive Bomber....

From History.Navy.Mil, https://www.history.navy.mil/research/h ... 6-vii.html we get this.....

Quote:
The weathered ship returned to sea from North Island during a voyage to Pearl Harbor (25 June–2 July 1940). Enterprise anchored at Lāhainā Roads at Maui, T.H., on 9 July, and on 13 July at Honolulu, where she embarked people from Warner Bros. and took part in the motion picture Dive Bomber, starring Errol Flynn, Fred MacMurray, Ralph Bellamy, Alexis Smith, and Regis Toomey, released in August 1941. Enterprise steamed at sea for two days of filming (16–17 July), and her crew enthusiastically supported the effort, her deck log noting wryly on the second day: “Making movies, no absentees.” Two clips show a plane landing on and taking off from the ship, a rarity in motion pictures at the time, and a number of her crewmen who took part in the filming of Dive Bomber served in her during World War II. The ship disembarked her passengers at Honolulu on 19 July, and on 26 July moored at Pearl Harbor. Film crews subsequently shot additional footage at NAS San Diego.


The NNHC (history.navy.mil) is DANF's official maintainer...... and what is quoted above comes from their CV-6 page.....

According to the Navy's history branch, DANF's, the film was shot aboard the Enterprise in July of '40, out of Pearl and not in April '41 out of San Diego.... It's pretty much accepted that she was painted in Ms. 1 by the end of May '41 at least..... The final shooting out of Pearl taking place on July 19th, and the ship was moored in Pearl on the 26th... Then it claims afterwards they shot even more out of San Diego Which would have had to have been in August 1940....

Ah, the movie was released August 12th 1941 in San Diego and August 30th Nationwide (according to IMDB) Someone might want to inform the Navy's historical branch they've got it wrong maybe? It was of course filmed in California with background shots filmed at Elgin Field Fla. being the only remote filming done.... (according to IMDB)

IMDB clearly shows the production dates for the movie as March 1941 - May 1941

We as researchers have to be careful, here is an example of History Navy Mil maintaining DANF's being possibly wrong or the IMDB being wrong as well...

More research is needed, particularly the logs of the Big "E" which would tell us clearly and without a doubt as to when she was under orders to make herself available for filming....

Anyway either time period will definitely rule out 5-D on the Mainmast collar support beam....


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:46 am 
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Screenshots from Dive Bomber (1941) Official Trailer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPrW5Lq5K80 Planes are shown in both prewar colorful and new light grey scheme.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2021 12:37 pm 
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Here are a couple of article about how resistant the Navy was to allowing access for the film. The film crew was only allowed three days on Enterprise and it wasn't a very welcoming three days. Jack Warner had to go all the way up to Frank Knox to get even that much time on the ship so I highly doubt the Navy painted either the entire ship or the flight deck specifically for the film.

Image
http://www.aycyas.com/divebomber.htm

Image


Last edited by Jeff Sharp on Sat Feb 13, 2021 9:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2021 7:29 pm 
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Jeff, can I get the source of your text block?

I'm pretty sure the filming was done in April 1941, Not saying IMDB isn't wrong, I've corrected enough of their entries to look at each one with a jaundiced eye.. (I'm an IMDB editor)

But I like sources.....

Thanks...

UPDATE:

Well so much for reading carefully and paying attention, I just found your link in your posting of the text block.....
Belated thank you.....

EG


Last edited by Egilman on Fri Feb 19, 2021 3:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2021 6:22 am 
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From https://www.history.navy.mil/research/histories/ship-histories/danfs/e/enterprise-cv-6-vii.html:
Quote from the link above:
"...Stark’s missive noted that Enterprise was to be assigned a restricted availability for an interim overhaul, to begin on 3 March (1941) and to have her ready again for sea by the end of the month. Enterprise consequently crossed the eastern Pacific (23 February–3 March) and through the end of the month moored at Bremerton and completed the work, which included degaussing and splinter protection.
The warship then (31 March–3 April) made for North Island... The carrier repeatedly cast off her mooring lines and worked up during voyages between San Diego and Pearl Harbor (21–27 April, 29 April–4 May, and 8–13 May)..."


Could she be painted in Ms. 1 during March overhaul?


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:12 am 
66misos wrote:
Could she be painted in Ms. 1 during March overhaul?


Could she have been painted in Ms.1 during her March '41 availability and still appeared in a movie in April of '41 in Standard Navy Grey?


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2021 12:32 pm 
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From the same article:
"...Enterprise anchored at Lāhainā Roads at Maui, T.H., on 9 July, and on 13 July (1940) at Honolulu, where she embarked people from Warner Bros. and took part in the motion picture Dive Bomber... Enterprise steamed at sea for two days of filming (16–17 July), and her crew enthusiastically supported the effort, her deck log noting wryly on the second day: “Making movies, no absentees.” Two clips show a plane landing on and taking off from the ship, a rarity in motion pictures at the time, and a number of her crewmen who took part in the filming of Dive Bomber served in her during World War II. The ship disembarked her passengers at Honolulu on 19 July, and on 26 July moored at Pearl Harbor. Film crews subsequently shot additional footage at NAS San Diego..."

When was filming at NAS San Diego? Seems all that happened several months before overhaul on March 1941.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 11:19 pm 
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66misos wrote:
When was filming at NAS San Diego? Seems all that happened several months before overhaul on March 1941.


I don't know, what we have uncovered is that there are two official repositories that are saying inopposite things, things where one or the other HAS to be wrong....

The only way to know for sure is the ships deck logs, they would tell the tale without any questions whatsoever....


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2021 2:29 pm 
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Well here's another link to a claim for where the movie was filmed....

The San Diego History Center....

Quote:
From the aviation pioneers at North Island to modern-day exploits of pilots at Miramar, the story of pilots both in the air and on the ground have been captured in Top Gun as well as Dive Bomber, Devil Dogs of the Air, Test Pilot, and Hell Divers. Aimed at filling theaters and increasing recruitment, San Diego’s aviation films have both entertained viewers and provided fodder for debating the use of aviation in our armed forces.


Here is the link....

https://sandiegohistory.org/military-htm/

One more credible source voting for San Diego and by relation, April 1941....

And another.... (San Diego Air & Space Museum)

https://sandiegoairandspace.org/exhibit ... -go-to-war


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