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PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2021 3:53 pm 
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Location: New Zealand
Hello,

I've just started my Flyhawk HMS Invincible and am trying to understand with what colour [grey] it (and Inflexible) were painted. Somewhere I read that they were light/pale grey and were mistaken for German ships when on their voyage South. The Flyhawk instructions suggest Sovereign Colourcoats GW02 (#2 Grey). I believe this is an RN/USN dazzle colour but is it a reasonable choice?

Cheers,
Graham

HMS Banshee and HMS Duckworth finished but awaiting photography


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2021 11:00 pm 
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Location: Calgary, Alberta
Hi Graham

GW04 is very close to the grey used by the RN in 1914.

Cheers,
George


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2021 3:17 pm 
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Hi George,

many thanks - GW04 does look like a paler grey than the previous very dark version. I was also confused about these GW paints - there was an earlier WEM series that was based on the dazzle colours - now discontinued it seems.

On the subject of dazzle, I'm about to start building the Iron Shipwrights 1/350 USS O'brien DD-51 as USS Winslow DD-53, as depicted in the fantastic new book "The Easter Egg Fleet" by Aryeh Wetherhorn. This is a compendium of most of the USN dazzle schemes as applied to military and civilian ships in WW1.

Cheers,
Graham


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 2:40 am 
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Hi Graham,

This was a scheme which we had some dialogue with Flyhawk about, so the GW02 suggestion was agreed with us. The reason behind this largely lies in persistent commentary of the British battlecruiser fleet being in lighter grey at Heligoland Bight and afterwards. Whilst some photographs of the ship are difficult to date precisely, most of them subjectively look and feel lighter than the contemporary 507B usually looks. The GW02 suggestion therefore was not so much about choosing a specific matched paint from the dazzle palette and more about suggesting something that looks credible versus the photos available. It is perhaps one of the weakest schemes in terms of hard evidence of all those we've liaised with Flyhawk about.

It would be difficult to criticise your choice with this model whatever you choose to do.

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James Duff
Sovereign Hobbies Ltd
http://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk

Current build:
HMS Imperial D09 1/350
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 4:00 pm 
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Location: New Zealand
Hi Jamie,

nice to have a reply from you and good to know you are involved with some kit manufacturers. It's clearly a difficult subject to unravel though. The inspiration for my HMS invincible is a well-known photograph of her coming into action at the Battle of the Falklands (e.g. page75 of The Osprey Campaign, Coronel & Falklands 1914). The ship does appear to be in a pale scheme (especially the aft funnel) - apart from the masts that may be dark grey (or smoke-stained?). It would seem daft to paint these pale grey only to have them fouled by soot & smoke in short order.

There is also the (undated) photo (e.g. page 20 of Shipcraft's Grand Fleet Battlecruisers) of the Big Cats looking quite pale. This might date before Dogger Bank as I seem to remember that they had acquired a dark hull panel by then.

Thanks again.
Cheers,
GrahamB

NZ's little bubble has been burst with an outbreak of Covid Delta in Auckland yesterday and we went into total lockdown for three days (outside Auckland) or a week (Auckland). Vaccination has been very slow here but at least my wife and I had had our first about two weeks ago.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 1:43 pm 
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Location: Calgary, Alberta
Hello,

I'm not sure I would trust any early B&W photo for colour balance as they are taken with orthochromatic film. This film type did not display colours as they were. A classic example is the British Union flag.
Attachment:
Union%20Flag%20Orthochromatic.JPG

Union Flag Orthochromatic
Attachment:
Union%20Flag%20Panchromatic.JPG

Union Flag Panchromatic
Attachment:
Union%20Jack.gif

Union Flag Colour

The blue of the union flag is completely different between the orthochromatc, much lighter, and the panchromatic which is similar to the colour in tone. So perhaps the Admiralty Fleet Order of November 19, 1914 should be followed; Hulls and weather work of all H M ships in home waters except torpedo craft to become light grey. Mixture to be 1 part black to 20 parts white by weight. Yes it is called light grey, and it is compared to the grey of 1902, but is it still a rather dark grey. Using current paints and by volume rather than weight the ratio for this grey is 3 parts black to 4 parts white paint.

Orthochromatic film was also very sensitive to exposure resulting in too light or too dark if you got the F stop wrong or the time of exposure wrong.

Cheers,
George


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2021 3:26 pm 
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I recently received Flyhawk’s 1/700 HMS Invincible and HMS Hood as birthday gifts. I figure I’ll give the tiny little Invincible a go before diving headlong into Hood. Alpha to Omega etc. The kit is excellent (though tiny) and my only complaint thus far is that it’s waterline only. I’d hoped to paint it with a dark grey bottom (prove me wrong, LOL! ). Oh well, looks like another lacklustre sea base (I’m not very good at those).

At this point I’m verifying the paint scheme: I’m satisfied that I have the right paints for the main hull, wooden deck, etc., but there is a wee bit of confusion regarding the non wooden planked decks. The kit’s painting instructions call for a dark grey…but would she not have had corticene? Her sister Inflexible had corticene (clearly seen in her John Brown construction photos - telltale brass strips in various locations)…at least as commissioned. I realise they may not have been 100% identical, and that there could’ve been (and were) configuration changes at different times, but I would have expected corticene to have been used on all three.

Has anyone come across anything that can shed some light on this?

Also, is there any consensus on the tripod mast colours? We’re they painted black or merely soot stained? Even the platforms atop the masts looks darkish.


Thanks!

Frank

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2021 4:28 pm 
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Hi Frank,

I've used corticene for the non-wooden decks, often following various builds in the Shipcraft book on British battlecruisers. As for the masts, I am sure they (and the tripod supports) were painted black from a certain height up to the tops only. This is visible in many photos, and was probably there from the very start. The Shipcraft book (and probably other sources) has a great photo of Inflexible at Genoa in March 1914 with the black demarcated clearly.
Also, see the evocative photo of Lion, Queen Mary and Princess Royal charging across the North Sea.

I've got to this stage now with my build - adding the main mast black and finishing off the railings and boat davits.

Good luck!

GrahamB


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2021 10:23 pm 
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GrahamB wrote:
Hi Frank,

I've used corticene for the non-wooden decks, often following various builds in the Shipcraft book on British battlecruisers. As for the masts, I am sure they (and the tripod supports) were painted black from a certain height up to the tops only. This is visible in many photos, and was probably there from the very start. The Shipcraft book (and probably other sources) has a great photo of Inflexible at Genoa in March 1914 with the black demarcated clearly.
Also, see the evocative photo of Lion, Queen Mary and Princess Royal charging across the North Sea.

I've got to this stage now with my build - adding the main mast black and finishing off the railings and boat davits.

Good luck!

GrahamB


Thanks Graham! I look forward to seeing your completed model.

Frank

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H.M.S. Hood Association
http://www.hmshood.org.uk
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2021 7:42 pm 
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Hi Frank,

not far off but the closer I get to finishing something the slower I get. I can see what you mean about the "tiny Invincible" - although I've got the Flyhawk Hood on order I've a Derrflinger (again almost finished) for side-by-side comparison and Invincible is clearly smaller too.
Cheers,
GrahamB


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2022 3:57 pm 
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How’s your battle cruiser Invincible coming along Graham? I’ve finally resumed working on mine after some interesting side diversions (WW1 aircraft). As the photo shows, I’ve not gotten very far along yet…the model’s sea base is nearly done and I’ve painted both the planked and corticene covered decks. Other than addition of the brass main gun barrels, that’s as far as I’ve gotten.
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H.M.S. Hood Association
http://www.hmshood.org.uk
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2022 5:58 pm 
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Hi Frank,

sounds just like me - I got diverted when I dithered when completing the signal halyards, aerials etc. Also, I've been puzzling on how to represent the anti-rangefinder spiral on the top of the foremast - all around the stays or is it an internal (2-D) thing? Got to sort out the flags as well.

Yours is coming on nicely. Quite surprising how small the Invincible class was compared to other later dreadnoughts and super-dreadnoughts (Hood included).

Diversions include nearly completed HMS Hydrangea Flower Class (Mirage + extras) and a well-on-the-way USS Birmingham CL-2 (Combrig) in its fabulous Admiralty-designed dazzle pattern.

As for HMS Hood - I recently bought the 7-DVD set A Sailor's View, Royal Navy At War. Marvelous to see the various ships in the camouflage schemes. Of particular interest is the Bismark episode on disc-4 where there is a brief clip of HMS Hood CLEARLY showing the much paler A and B turrets (real date for this?) - I don't know anyone that could argue that this is 507A. Also, two sequences (the latter probably anachronistic) on disc-4 of HMS Rodney in the Flotta scheme - April 1940 Norway operations and the Bismark hunt.

Good luck with the build!
Cheers,
GrahamB


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