The Ship Model Forum

The Ship Modelers Source
It is currently Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:23 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 753 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 34, 35, 36, 37, 38
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 1:52 am 
Online
SovereignHobbies
SovereignHobbies

Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2015 9:09 am
Posts: 1142
Location: Aberdeenshire, Scotland, UK
We've all been dancing around this without just straight out saying it, so here it is:

A great many narratives of which ships wore which paints are predicated on a flawed understanding of the colours and names assigned to them.

Whilst we do appear to be making some headway to correct the fundamental mistake here, the wider implication is that the majority of published works which touch on Royal Navy WWII camouflage are wrong.

In this particular case, there were no 507A,B,C three-tone schemes because A & B were the same. Where a 3 tone scheme is apparent in B&W photographs, they were clearly 3 tone but at a minimum one of the 3 paints named is wrong, but sometimes 2 or perhaps even all 3.

As always though, it's harder to make an authoritative statement about what paint is on a ship than it is to state what's claimed to be there is incorrect.

If someone posts a photograph of some new species of beetle and captions it as an elephant, it's much easier to say "that definitely isn't an elephant" than it is to correctly describe what kind of beetle it is. Similarly, the amount of time that goes into any one camouflage scheme of any one ship is much larger (and often with residual uncertainties at the end) than it takes to glance at a published colour illustration, compare to photographs and updated understanding of the paints available and say "Nope, that's not right".

_________________
James Duff
Sovereign Hobbies Ltd
http://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk

Current build:
HMS Imperial D09 1/350
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:25 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 1:40 pm
Posts: 7702
Location: New Jersey
Attachment:
HMS_PRINCE_OF_WALES_arrives_at_Singapore,_4_December_1941._A6784_(cropped).jpg

If the lightest color in this scheme is 507C, then what's the colors coming through underneath - white?


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

_________________
Martin

"Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday." John Wayne

Ship Model Gallery


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:42 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2009 3:18 pm
Posts: 615
Location: Palm Beach, Fla
I don't think British Capital ships wore white in WWII.
I think its just original 507-C showing through the MS paints due to wave action, the MS paints likely were not as durable as the original 507-C Admiralty paints. The overpainting of MS-4 might not have been as well prepared as the under layers.
Just a guess others will know more.
John


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:52 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:44 pm
Posts: 607
Location: UK
Martin J Quinn My guess is either the original light grey she was launched in or the very light/white undercoat under that. http://www.artnet.com/artists/charles-g ... sIuyHCm5w2


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:01 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:51 pm
Posts: 2765
--


Last edited by EJFoeth on Thu Feb 17, 2022 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 6:08 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:52 am
Posts: 77
What is "tie" coating?

81542


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 6:20 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:51 pm
Posts: 2765
--


Last edited by EJFoeth on Thu Feb 17, 2022 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:01 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:52 am
Posts: 77
The terms used in British industry and the Royal Navy have for some considerable time been the same. What you term the "tie" coat, EJ Foeth, is known as the "under coat." One of its functions may well be the binding of the primer to the top coat. However, due to the fact that a primer may differ in hue from the top coat, the under coat: being much the same hue as the top, is generally used to cover the primer, hence it is often advisable to apply two coats of under coat before applying a top coat.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 6:34 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 1:40 pm
Posts: 7702
Location: New Jersey
dick wrote:
Martin J Quinn My guess is either the original light grey she was launched in or the very light/white undercoat under that. http://www.artnet.com/artists/charles-g ... sIuyHCm5w2

Thanks for your responses here and on FB. Very helpful!

_________________
Martin

"Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday." John Wayne

Ship Model Gallery


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2021 6:42 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:53 pm
Posts: 432
I am currently reading a copy of "Alarm Starboard" by Geoffrey Brooke one of the survivors from Prince of Wales from Bismarck right through to the sinking. He doesn't go into much detail of the colours in the camouflage but does make some interesting observations. In one part he stated British ships had a more blueish look to their grey than the German ships. He describes seeing the antifouling hull of Ark Royal bobbing out of the water looking almost brown.

One interesting point was that Bismarck damage to the ship was never fully repaired in some areas and the compass platform was "never quite the same" In fact the compass platform they painted a white area on the place where one of their members lost their life as a form of memorial to them. So on the compass platform somewhere there was an area painted white that was still dented from the shell hit.

Unfortunately he does not go into detail about how the ship had the camouflage painted on it as I have now got to the chapter on the "Fall of Singapore" and the ships has already been sunk.

The Bismarck action almost nearly sunk the Prince of Wales and he seems to think it would have been sunk if the 15 inch shell had exploded that they found in the ship when it was in dry dock getting repairs. It landed so close to the aft oil reserves and magazines that it was his opinion that had it gone off there the ship would have been lost.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:08 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:44 pm
Posts: 607
Location: UK
Sutho wrote:
I am currently reading a copy of "Alarm Starboard" by Geoffrey Brooke one of the survivors from Prince of Wales from Bismarck right through to the sinking. He doesn't go into much detail of the colours in the camouflage but does make some interesting observations. In one part he stated British ships had a more blueish look to their grey than the German ships. He describes seeing the antifouling hull of Ark Royal bobbing out of the water looking almost brown.


Re Ark Royal, not the hull, just the forefoot as I read it:

(Page 7) “…heaving her bow right out of the sea so that the angular brown-painted forefoot jutted clear…..”

Brooke records the incident with Ark Royal as being two weeks into the war, so roughly mid September 1939. Her previous docking was July 1939 and the relevant D495 docking report tells us that at that time Ark Royal’s bottom was coated with Moravia paints, but this particular report does not tell us the colour of the paints used.

First on would have been two coats of protective. Moravia protective came in grey and red. Say the grey went on first and red second. We don’t know the hue of Moravia ‘red’ but my suspicion, based on the builder’s model of KGV, is that Moravia’s red protective was actually quite brown.

After that came the top coat, the anti-fouling. Moravia anti fouling came in grey or black. The bow area was one of the areas of the bottom subject to most wear from water friction, the forefoot perhaps particularly so. Say the anti fouling there was beginning to wear off and the top layer of protective was showing through…. that could account for what Brooke recalled when he wrote his book 43 years later.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2022 11:02 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:44 pm
Posts: 607
Location: UK
For those with an interest in the colour of the lower hull of HMS Prince of Wales, I have consulted the Ships’ Covers for the KGV Class held by the NMM. A note states that MacArthur’s composition was designated to be used on the bottom of HMS Prince Wales. MacArthur’s anti fouling composition came in black or grey. The lower hull of HMS Prince of Wales is visible in photos of her in drydock after the Bismarck action and when sinking. These show that her lower hull was lighter than (the black of) her boot topping indicating that her bottom was grey.

The shades of grey (and red) anti fouling compositions used by the RN in WW2 varied according to the different manufacturers. Photos seem to show that MacArthur’s grey anti fouling might have been very slightly lighter than Home Fleet grey.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2022 4:57 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2014 9:02 pm
Posts: 134
Thank you Richard, it's wonderful to read the results of your searches.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 753 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 34, 35, 36, 37, 38

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests


You can post new topics in this forum
You can reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group