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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2022 6:46 pm 
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Iceman 29 wrote:
What's color for Hoga tugboat? 5D, 5S, 5O ?

Tks!


Hi Pascal,
What time period for her are you asking about?


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2022 5:00 am 
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Hello Jeff, The 7 dec 1941.

We can see that the Tugboat Nokomis was not yet painted in 5-O, while Hoga was. This confirms a transition period of measurement (evoked in this subject).

So I'm looking more specifically for the colors of these pictures of the Nokomis:

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The Hoga is probably painted in 5-O, hull and superstructure the same day.

The Nokomis is painted in the same way when the Hornet returns from the Coral Sea, you can see it on this picture.

Hornet CV-8 and Nokomis.
At Pearl Harbor, May 26, 1942, just after the Battle of the Coral Sea and just before the Battle of Midway. The harbor tug Nokomis (YT-142) is underway alongside her.
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The USS Yorktown (CV-5 arrives at Pearl Harbor after the Battle of the Coral Sea on May 27, 1942, with her crew parading in white on the flight deck. After repairs, she departed on May 30 to participate in the Battle of Midway. The tug Hoga (YT-146) is in the center foreground.
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USS Arizona (BB-39), and Hoga presumably, can be recognized by her maturity.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2022 6:44 pm 
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Nokomis and Hoga were sisterships of the Woban Class. When both were commissioned at the end of 1940 into 1941, they were painted in what was typical for service vessels at the time. Buff over Black. Their superstructures were painted Buff and the hulls were painted Black.
Here is a color picture of another sister, USS Wenonah, at San Diego 1941 wearing the same Buff over Black.
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Sometime before September 1941 Hoga painted out of this scheme but Nokomis did not. This shot shows Hoga at her normal berth in the Navy Yard on Sept. 26, 1941.
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This tells me that she was painted into 5-D. At least her superstructure was. It's possible that her hull remained black but that is only speculation on my part based on tonal differences I see in some photos of her during the attack. Maybe the tonal difference is just what you get when you paint 5-D over Buff as opposed to over Black.
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I don't see any evidence of Hoga's pole mast wearing 5-L to conform to MS-1 camouflage. Maybe the 5-L is covered with smokestack soot.
Other service vessels during the attack also still wore the Buff over Black including USS Osceola, YO-23 and YW-16. The two garbage lighters, YG-17 and YG-21( YG-21 can be seen behind USS Hoga in the above photo putting out fires on USS Arizona) have me scratching my head a little bit! Logic would say that they were also painted in Buff over Black but their upper works photograph VERY light compared to the others mentioned. Here are the two of them together putting out fires on USS West Virginia. YG-17 on the left and YG-21 on the right. I always assumed they wore White but I'm not so sure!
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After a little while, YG-21 left and USS Hoga took her spot next to YG-17. Here is a colorized still of them together.
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YG-17
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YG-21
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YO-23
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YW-16
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USS Osceola behind USS Sunnadin
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2022 7:46 am 
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Thanks Jeff!

This is relevant!

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•Battleship Bretagne 3D: https://vu.fr/FvCY
•SS Delphine 3D: https://vu.fr/NeuO
•SS Nomadic 3D: https://vu.fr/tAyL
•USS Nokomis 3D: https://vu.fr/kntC
•USS Pamanset 3D: https://vu.fr/jXGQ


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PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2022 1:45 pm 
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I just started working on a theory concerning the Identification letters on the ships boats at Pearl on 12/7/41. What I've seen so far is that for MS-1 ships the identification letters were painted "White" while the letters on the boats of ships wearing MS-11 were painted 5-S "Sea Blue" to match the rest of the boat.

Again, this is just a theory of mine and more research is needed.

USS Detroit was known to be in MS-11 at the time of the attack. Here is a pic of one of her boats showing "DET" painted to match the boat.
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This pic shows USS Oklahoma and USS Argonne boats. Both still have white letters.
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USS Argonne was no doubt wearing MS-1
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Here is another one of Argonne's boats
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USS Arizona boats with white letters.
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When USS Maryland left Puget Sound in Aug. '41 she was freshly painted in MS-1. Here you can see her boats have white letters.
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Boat of USS Maryland still with white letters during the attack.
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Boat of USS Vestal, no white letters. Vestal was also wearing MS-11 at the time of the attack.
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USS Raleigh was also wearing MS-11 at the time of the attack. Here is one of her boats with no white letters.
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Boat of USS Oglala
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Boat of USS West Virginia
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USS San Francisco was in the Navy Yard right in the middle of a repaint into MS-11 when the attack happened. Here you can see the top half of her superstructure is still in MS-1 while her forward stack is primed for a coat of 5-S paint. Aft stack is already painted in 5-S. The aft portion of the hull showing appears to still be in MS-1 (5-D).
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Here is one of USS San Francisco's boats.
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I have a few more examples that I'm looking for better copies of that I will post. In the meantime, if anyone has any other examples of the ships boats on that day please feel free to post them here.
I would like to see examples of USS Tennessee, USS California, USS Nevada, USS St Louis, USS Phoenix, USS Honolulu, USS Helena, USS Pennsylvania.


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PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2022 3:59 pm 
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Painting over the white lettering post-Ms 1 camo would fit in with changes made based on observations during the Camo Experiments in the summer of 1941. Anything "white" or shiny needed to be either painted or covered ... including crew clothing. :big_grin: The Atlantic Fleet painted hull numbers black in most cases wearing Ms 2 or 12. The only thing different from these images from what became standard, was that ships hull numbers were to be painted in a contrasting gray (5-N or 5-O or 5-H depending on camo scheme used). In having looked at 1,000's of photos of destroyer photos, in 1942 onwards, new ship boats had NO ship names/initials but sometimes had the hull numbers applied on the hull exterior. Some ship CO's and senior crewmen (old salts), continued to apply the hull number with or without the "arrow". The use of initials fell away with SO MANY new ships in service, hull numbers were easier to keep straight. Something I learned. Ship boats were an "Accountable Item" to a ship. If a ship lost a boat in action or storm damage, etc and "procured" another boat from a forward base (maybe a repaired boat from another ship), and when they went in for overhaul or repair work stateside, they had to show the paperwork of WHERE they got this boat and WHAT happened to the original ASSIGNED boat. I went through a series of letters for one such case in a destroyer's BuShips file because they neglected the paperwork that made me chuckle.

You can tell in some of these images, that the host ship's boats had raised letters applied before being painted.


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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2022 9:36 pm 
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This one I find interesting. Here is a boat in the foreground painted 5-S with no white letters. You can see there are letters there but they are darkened. It's too far away to make out the letters. There are two boats behind this one in 5-D and a couple of 5-D oval rafts in the water. No doubt California is also in MS-1 with 5-D.
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This one shows a 5-S boat in the foreground with a handful of 5-D boats in the background.
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2022 12:58 pm 
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It appears upon initial inspection that the Atlantic Fleet also eliminated the “white” identification letters when they transitioned into MS-12 in August ‘41.
The ships boats for MS-12 would be painted 5-O. Here are a couple of examples.
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USS Texas in Newfoundland Oct. 1941 wearing MS-13. No white letters on her boats.
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Last edited by Jeff Sharp on Thu Jun 16, 2022 8:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2022 7:32 pm 
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On Dec.5, 1941 USS Portland left Pearl with Lexington and a couple of other cruisers to supply aircraft to Midway. She left behind the Captain’s gig, two motor launches and one whaleboat. She still had one motor launch and two whaleboats aboard during the trip.
This photo shows a whaleboat with the white identification letters. Portland was wearing MS-1 at the time.
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The 4 boats left behind are documented here http://uss-portland-ca33.org/we-remember-1941-1945.html for those interested in learning more about Portland.
I was hoping to find a photo of one of these boats at Pearl and I lucked out.
Here is a photo of Portland's whaleboat #1 alongside USS Arizona. She has white "POR" as well.
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Last edited by Jeff Sharp on Fri Jun 17, 2022 9:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2022 7:00 pm 
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More Identification letters fun! The movie "To the Shores of Tripoli" which was filmed shortly before that attack on Pearl amazingly captured the moment on Dec. 5th that Portland, Minneapolis, Chicago, and Astoria left Pearl.
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This film also captured a scene using one of USS Widgeon's whaleboats. She is in 5-D with white "WI." on her bow. In the scene as the boat is pulling up to the ship, the actor steering the boat yells out "Hey Widgeon" . Clearly this ship is not USS Widgeon. USS Widgeon's stern was much bigger than this vessel's and she always carried a diving bell on her stern. Not sure yet which ship this is.
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Another interesting thing about this boat is that even the decks and benches in the boat are painted 5-D.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2022 4:10 pm 
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USS Tangier was converted into a seaplane tender and painted into MS-11 at Mare Island at the end of August 1941 before heading to Pearl. Here are some crops of her boats. None of them have white identification letters. USS Tangier, USS Vestal, and USS Helena were at Mare Island in August 1941 for refits and all three came back to Pearl wearing MS-11.
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This view weeks after the attack shows her ID letters as "TANG", but not painted white.
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This pic shows a boat from USS Thornton AVD 11 with white letters passing by USS California.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 5:28 pm 
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Continuing the search, here is a shot of a USS Utah boat with white "Utah".
Image


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2022 8:23 pm 
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Here are two whaleboats of USS Nevada with white "NEV" . Interestingly the inside of these boats appear to be unpainted which is surprising since Nevada had painted decks.
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Still looking for Penn, Tenn, Calif, Hel, StL, Pho, NO.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2022 1:56 pm 
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Yeah, looks that way to me also. Very odd!


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 4:56 pm 
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With my Hiryu build winding down, I'm looking to resume my Tennessee build.

Question: Given the 10/31/41 directive for Tennessee to paint her decks blue, would that order apply to her bridge decks and "bird's nest" deck as well? I'm trying to decide if any of these upper decks would still show linoleum or dark gray.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 10:47 am 
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Bump


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 8:04 pm 
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Dan K wrote:
With my Hiryu build winding down, I'm looking to resume my Tennessee build.

Question: Given the 10/31/41 directive for Tennessee to paint her decks blue, would that order apply to her bridge decks and "bird's nest" deck as well? I'm trying to decide if any of these upper decks would still show linoleum or dark gray.

Was the directive to paint "all" her decks, or just the main deck and the 01 (boat) deck? If all, I would say paint them all deck blue.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2023 8:23 pm 
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The October directive references this letter which speaks to both wood decks and steel decks.
http://www.researcheratlarge.com/Ships/ ... Stain.html


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2023 12:11 pm 
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Thank you, Jeff.

So, the way I read this directive is that only the wood decks were directed to be painted blue at this time for the observation experiments. And that at some future time, when instructions are revised, blue will be applied to steel decks as well. IIRC, that revision comes much later in the year, which means it likely that TN has not painted any steel decks blue by 12/7.

Which would mean any linoleum deck is left untouched as well.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2023 1:18 pm 
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Hard to say. By the time Tennessee painted her decks in November, SHIPS2 was already out to the fleet. I would error on the side that all decks were painted.


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