The Ship Model Forum

I WOULD LIKE TO GET A CONSENSUS OF OPINIONS AS TO WETHER THE SWASTIKA ON THE DECK OF THE BISMARCK WAS VISIBLE DURING THE FINAL BATTLE THAT LED TO HER SINKING. I HAVE READ SEVERAL DIFFERENT ACCOUNTS THAT THE SWASTIKA WAS COVERED OVER WITH CANVAS AND THAT IT WAS ALSO PAINTED OUT WHEN THE BALTIC CAMO WAS PAINTED OVER. THE PICTURES OF THE WRECK CLEARLY SHOW THE BOW SWASTIKA, BUT IS THIS A RESULT OF THE PAINT WEARING OFF OR THE CANVAS DISINTERGRATING?

ANY OPINIONS ARE APPRECIATED

First, please don't write everything in capitals as this may be taken as shouting and yelling at the reader, and it is quite difficult to read.

With regard to your question, the best we can do is to look at Prinz Eugen photos and the wreck of Bismarck. Survivors also can be helpful but their number is getting smaller and their memories often fade. I've spoken to one who was in his 90s and he couldn't remember anything about colours. He was a 20-year-old bloke back then and not directly involved in painting. So he gave a *censored by myself* on what the paint crew was doing.

Prinz Eugen: photos and the Rheinübung video shows the turret tops (air recognition signs) and the swastica (national emblem) covered with canvas when entering the Norwegian fjords. I think you can actually see the canvas blowing in the wind (or this is my imagination right now). On the morning of May 22 - shortly before or after leaving the German air cover around Norway - the Prinz received an order from Fleet (Lütjens on Bismarck) via radio transmission to overpaint air recognition signs and national emblems with hull grey. Later photos clearly show that the canvas is gone and the grey paint is on. At least this drives us to the conclusion that they did it on Bismarck as well.

On wreck photos you see remainings of the red band, the white ball, the black swastica and the grey paint to cover everything. I think this is just the result of decades under water.

To sum it up, the canvas was just used when they knew that it can't be blown away from wind and weather, such as in (normally) calm fjords. As soon as you enter the 'open' sea, it is better to take it off, otherwise the wind or green seas will do that for you. Lütjens gave the order to Prinz Eugen to overpaint it, and I have no reason to believe that this order was not valid for Bismarck on which Lütjens was sailing. In a nutshell, during her last battle, the swasticas were not visible because grey paint was covering them.

Happy concluding ~ Olaf!

Hello Olaf,

Do you happen to have an idea as to what color Grey was used to paint out the swasticas? For instance Hellgrau 50, Dunkelgrau 51 etc...

Thank You,
Dana

As mentioned above, I believe it was hull grey. I have to look it up but I think the radio message from Lütjens to PG states to overpaint the air recognition signs and national emblems with Außenbordsgrau (literally: outboard grey). So Dunkelgrau 51 it would be. Problem here: the (horizontal) turret tops appear way too dark on photos to be Dunkelgrau 51. They may have used Dunkelgrau 2 for this. But the grey paint visible on the wreck's swasticas appears as Dunkelgrau 51. I posted a link to a photo HERE. This should answer the question of the topic starter as well.

Happy painting ~ Olaf!

The recent book - German Naval Camouflage Volume One 1939-1941 by Asmussen/Leon has lots of info on all of the principle KM units during this period - It's a good buy and is recommended for ship models who like to get their colours right.

Assuming that your ad aims at the thread title and assuming that the book shows all the stuff from John's website, then I highly doubt your last statement. Anyhow, I need to get the book first...

Happy reading ~ Olaf!

Olaf, I have the book, and it looks like a most handy guide.

Is there a problem with it?

With......I meant that I need to get the book first in order to say if it is just a re-hash of the online stuff or if there is more. I've read that the book comprehensively covers smaller units as well, not just the capital ships. But again: I need to have a look on my own.

To the topic of this thread: does the book answer the thread title correctly?

Happy reading ~ Olaf!

For the sake of politeness, is there a proper name we can use for you?

Olaf,
I look forward to your observations on the book once you have had the opportunity to check it out for yourself.
That said, it clearly states in the book that there is very little Kriegsmarine documentation to go so I applaud the authors for piecing together the various camouflage schemes from the scraps of evidence available. Naturally there will be errors and omissions, but that's what a 2nd edition or follow on volume is for!

PNG

The book has new infos and never before published photos. I dont need to say that none of the material has been copied or stolen from any other authors or previous works. The book is the result of more than 30 years of research. I recommend you buy it right now as copies can run out very soon!

About the Author
John Asmussen is an amateur naval historian who was studied the battleship Bismarck since 1977. In 2000, he published what today is the premier website on the Bismarck. In 2001-2002, he worked for director James Cameron on a $27.5 million dollar documentary project titled James Cameron's Expedition Bismarck. In June 2002, he dived to the wreck of Bismarck together with Cameron. In 2004, he helped a Norwegian museum to present an exhibition on the Tirpitz.

Now this is really a good piece of eye-watering trumpet-blowing ...

Nothing was copied? HA! Even the mistakes made by others years ago were taken over... as simple as that.

@ PNG ~ There's no need for not feeling welcome.


Happy whatever ~ Olaf!

Hello everybody,

well said Olaf !

Someone released everything many years ago, ... and somebody else recently copied everything on a book, ... but probably our " guest " is not so smart of having read it, so we allow him to do it now.

Go and take a look and read when it was done and by who :

http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1221

and here on a German forum too, so plenty of witnesses in the world about it :

http://forum-marinearchiv.de/smf/index. ... 967.0.html

http://forum-marinearchiv.de/smf/index. ... 435.0.html

http://forum-marinearchiv.de/smf/index. ... 305.0.html

.... as Olaf correctly wrote, ... even old mistakes have been copied, ... so competent the "copycats" are .... ah,ah,ah,ah,ah ......

... and as you can read the drawings were copyrighted ...

Bye Antonio

In all fairness, and I repeat it again: I don't have the book, and I don't want to talk it down before I read it. I'm sure it is full of hard work, we all know Eric's wonderful illustrations. But putting the Scharnhorst-examples as a teaser online in the German forum, wasn't one of the greatest ideas. On the other hand, to quote Oscar Wilde: "The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about."

If this goes on here, it will get separated from this thread.


Happy discussing ~ Olaf!

Hi all,

I was told by moderator Olaf Held that there have been a discussion about Eric Leon's and my book in here. So I went to have a look.

I had hoped that this forum had higher standards than a moderator (Olaf Held) using his position to team up with a user (Antonio Bonomi) to write false accusations.

I find it interesting that Olaf Held and Antonio Bonomi has written their postings only 13 minutes apart from eachother. Seems well-coordinated between the two.

I think you all should know that Olaf Held has never even seen the book. Still he feels entitled to judge it and spread his accusations of copying.

And to you Bonomi: You have toured the internet for years promoting yourself with mass-produced colorized scans from books, telling everybody that you are the king of camouflage.

First of all, you can't draw yourself. Secondly, the drawings are mere scans from books. Simple drawings, from Gröner's books and/or others. Then some colours and patterns are added and you're ready to go.

Eric Leon and I make all our drawings from scratch using professional programs. This enables us to make the drawings very detailed.

Like you, both Eric Leon and I are equipped with two eyes, so be sure that we are capable of looking at photos and analysing them. In contrary to you we're also capable of actually make the drawings ourselves.

We have no interest in "your" pathetic drawings. They also wouldn't meet our requirements.

Anybody with eyes and a minimum of brain activity can see a huge difference between "your" drawings and ours.

People have made drawings of German warships for decades. Don't go around and pretend you have copyright on making drawings, which you, as I said, are not even capable of doing. You are good at marketing yourself, but you don't have the skills to make drawings.

You are a jealous person whos dream is to become famous. That's all you care about. Like when you was so desperate to write a book so you handed over a poor manuscript to a guy in USA where you would get no royalty. That was the only way you could do it as no publisher would do it. Ah, ah, ah, to use your own words.

It might be that you are protected by the management of this forum, but what you and Olaf Held has written above is pure nonsense and merely a pathetic attempt to harm the sale of the book.

I'm confident that people can judge for themselves if they purchase the German Navy Camouflage book.

Now I look forward to see if moderator Olaf Held or others in here will delete my posting because truth hurts.

John Asmussen

Hi John ~ I will reply to the things directly aimed at me, but not to things you wrote against Antonio, he can speak for himself. I have no intention to get involved in whatever came between you and him in the past.

First, my status as a moderator has nothing to do with teaming up or not with anybody. I don’t think that readers here believe in me more or less just because my name is written in a different colour than yours. Second, everything we as moderators are doing now can be used against us. In your very last line you made clear that you hope we’re not censoring. We will let hidden accusations flip through as long as the writer knows how to behave.

The last time Italians and Germans have tried to coordinated something ended up with a mess for both. Anyway, as mentioned above, I have no interest in becoming involved in whatever is between you. I told that Antonio as well. I am not coordinating my posts here with anybody, period.

See my post above yours. How can I make it more clear that I don’t want to judge over the book before I read it? You should have used the pair of eyes you claim to have. Then you even would have realised that I did not accuse of using others illustrations, but copying others mistakes. It makes no difference if you or Eric drew them from scratch. You took a camouflage pattern from an old illustration without realising (researching!) that it was wrong. We all make mistakes, sure, but claiming that everything is the product of your long-lasting research is just too funny to believe. And you know what? You posted this camouflage pattern of all in another forum (FMA) as a teaser, advertising your book. No problem with that. But using the fact that I haven’t seen the book is irrelavant. As I wrote via e-mail, I criticised only what I have seen. And I saw that wrong camouflage pattern on the other forum. Nothing more. And I did not criticise Eric. Others have pointed out istakes such as wrong colours of airplanes, updide-down flags etc.

This all was not me and I never mentioned it, just for the record.

This is what I was saying about behavior. Quite hot stuff for a first post. Please refrain from judging over the managment of this forum without knowing it.
Finally, what kind of interest should I have to harm sales of your book? Are you implying that your readership is not able to find out if it is any good or not?

Happy discussing ~ Olaf!

John contacted me off the board, saying that the quotation above implies that not only mistakes but whole drawings of an unspecified number had been copied. It was not my intention to leave this impression. The topic of copying and steeling was thrown in by one of the guests above, although nobody brought it up in this thread. Precaution?

Anyway, I jumped on it a bit too quickly. Sorry to John and Eric.

Happy reading ~ Olaf!

John Asmussen wrote:

"And to you Bonomi: You have toured the internet for years promoting yourself with mass-produced colorized scans from books, telling everybody that you are the king of camouflage.

First of all, you can't draw yourself. Secondly, the drawings are mere scans from books. Simple drawings, from Gröner's books and/or others. Then some colours and patterns are added and you're ready to go.

Eric Leon and I make all our drawings from scratch using professional programs. This enables us to make the drawings very detailed.

Like you, both Eric Leon and I are equipped with two eyes, so be sure that we are capable of looking at photos and analysing them. In contrary to you we're also capable of actually make the drawings ourselves.

We have no interest in "your" pathetic drawings. They also wouldn't meet our requirements.

Anybody with eyes and a minimum of brain activity can see a huge difference between "your" drawings and ours.

People have made drawings of German warships for decades. Don't go around and pretend you have copyright on making drawings, which you, as I said, are not even capable of doing. You are good at marketing yourself, but you don't have the skills to make drawings.

You are a jealous person whos dream is to become famous. That's all you care about. Like when you was so desperate to write a book so you handed over a poor manuscript to a guy in USA where you would get no royalty. That was the only way you could do it as no publisher would do it. Ah, ah, ah, to use your own words.

It might be that you are protected by the management of this forum, but what you and Olaf Held has written above is pure nonsense and merely a pathetic attempt to harm the sale of the book.

I'm confident that people can judge for themselves if they purchase the German Navy Camouflage book.

Now I look forward to see if moderator Olaf Held or others in here will delete my posting because truth hurts.

John Asmussen"

------------------------------------

I have followed Bonomi's warship histories for many years in other forums and used some information for my own modelling. Antonio may or may not have the skills to make warship drawings himself, but that is why he teamed up with Abram Joslin. If I am not mistaken, Antonio did the research and Abram Joslin made the drawings. Just like you teamed up with Eric Leon to make the drawings for you. I don't see anything wrong there. From where does the research come from is of course a whole different matter, as there are people around keeping an eye on the different forums just to put their hands on new findings made by others and claim later they were the result of their own 30 years of research! I really wished there were more people like Antonio who shares his research with the whole naval community for FREE, and does not make a cent out of it.

Why, so that no one can get compensated for their time researching enough that they can afford to do MORE RESEARCH??????

A community that demands everything for free is a cancer. One that *respects* the time of others and will work to SUPPORT other members of the community rather than just leech off them will be a much more viable one. That support, by the way, is a two-way street. I put some of my research out for free, but I'm sitting on some of it as well and I would hope that people would support me if I put something out there commercially that was valuable to them.

_________________
Tracy White -Researcher@Large

"Let the evidence guide the research. Do not have a preconceived agenda which will only distort the result."
-Barbara Tuchman

Hello everybody,

first of all I like to thank a person to me unknown by the name of Alan Ziegler for having written this statement :

" I have followed Bonomi's warship histories for many years in other forums and used some information for my own modelling. Antonio may or may not have the skills to make warship drawings himself, but that is why he teamed up with Abram Joslin. If I am not mistaken, Antonio did the research and Abram Joslin made the drawings. Just like you teamed up with Eric Leon to make the drawings for you. I don't see anything wrong there. From where does the research come from is of course a whole different matter, as there are people around keeping an eye on the different forums just to put their hands on new findings made by others and claim later they were the result of their own 30 years of research! I really wished there were more people like Antonio who shares his research with the whole naval community for FREE, and does not make a cent out of it ".

He got perfectly the point and he explained well the timing of events, on Tirpitz drawings and knowledge as well as lately on the whole Kriegsmarine warships camouflage stuffs that were obtained and copied in the way he followed thru the years.

Now I would like to continue here and explain it in more details, but since there are here potential legal implications I avoid intentionally to do it and ask the management never to delete this series of post that of course I have copied and saved, because it can be that my legals can ask for a formal copy and confirmation of what has been written.

Bye Antonio

Just a note Antonio - it is unwise to place your defense in others' hands. We've had to reset the board once here (seven years ago, thank goodness it hasn't happened since) due to a hacker - events beyond the control of an administrator. This "defense" would be lost to you if it happened again.

_________________
Tracy White -Researcher@Large

"Let the evidence guide the research. Do not have a preconceived agenda which will only distort the result."
-Barbara Tuchman