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 Post subject: Re: On RN WW1 Grey
PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2015 1:44 am 
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George,

I’m trying to mix by volume by converting the weight to pints and hence getting a mix ratio of black to white. The formulae for RN and RAN 507C for 1927 shows that the RAN substituted 19.75 pints of white enamel for 42.5lbs of white. As they had the same colour, to me that means that 42.5lbs is 19.75 pints by volume. So 1lb of white is .464705882 pints. Using that formula, the weight of white can be calculated to pints.

Going online, I have found several on line calculators who include linseed oil in their database. Linseed oil is shown as a drying oil and a pigment binder in oil based paints. So it seems reasonable to me to assume that this is the oil that the “black in oil” in the RN’s formula is in. That makes 1lb of black in oil as 0.859152 of a pint.

From there it is just a matter of calculating the pints for each formula and working out the mixing ratio from there as attached.

Regards,
Michael


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 Post subject: Re: On RN WW1 Grey
PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2015 4:19 am 
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Important info for US readers!

A UK/Australia pint is 20 fluid ounces: 568 ml.


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 Post subject: Re: On RN WW1 Grey
PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2015 10:24 am 
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Thanks Michael,

Looking at your spreadsheet I notice the use of "White Lead Oil Paste" and "Black In Oil". The original formula for Pattern No. 507C 1916 calls out "White Lead" and "Black, ordinary" which in my research are dry powders. I believe your are applying 1920's paint making technique to a 1916 formula which should give a different colour.
If you look at your ratio for Pattern No. 507C you get 1 black to 12.389 white. (Assuming you are adding black into white paint.) For the same colour mixed as per the 1916 formula and then colour compared to modern paint I get 3 black to 4 white. Completely different.

I believe there are two issues at play:
1. Assumption that the weight ratio/volume of "White Lead Oil Paste" and "Black In Oil" used in the 1920's is valid for 1916 and earlier, I believe this to be false.
2. The density of White Lead = Lead Carbonate = 6.582 g/cm3 and the density of Titanium Oxide (Rutile form) = 4.23 g/cm3 are very different. Modern paint using titanium oxide also seem to give a stronger white resulting in much less white paint required to produce the same grey.

The resultant is that the math deployed does not reflect the complexity of the change from old paint to current paint.

Regards,
George


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 Post subject: Re: On RN WW1 Grey
PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2015 3:38 am 
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George,

1. Assumption that the weight ratio/volume of "White Lead Oil Paste" and "Black In Oil" used in the 1920's is valid for 1916 and earlier, I believe this to be false.

I don’t think I’m applying 1920’s to 1916 but continuing the 1902 method. When I wrote up the original 1902 formula I had for what we now call 507, I wrote 11oz of black to 6lb of white. The full formula is:

White Lead 6lbs
Paint, Black 11ozs
To every cwt of this mixture is to be added:
Driers, Marine 8lbs
Oil, Linseed, Raw 3 galls.
Turpentine, Spirits of, 1 gall.


That would make approximately 11.5lbs of black to 100.5lbs of white and then add the extra e.g. driers etc. Later formulae talk of 1cwt equating to 5 gallons of paint. What does this make? Certainly more than 5 gallons as 4 gallons are added to the mix.

The word used in 1902 was paint not paste or powder. After all, for years before the grey came in, the RN had been painting their ships black. So did pre mixed black paint exist? If it didn’t, the RN definitely knew how to make it.

Also, on your postings you have “Ordinary Black” as well as “Ordinary Stiff Black”. So what is Black, Ordinary, the mixed black paint "Ordinary Black" or the “Stiff Black” used to make it?

2. The density of White Lead = Lead Carbonate = 6.582 g/cm3 and the density of Titanium Oxide (Rutile form) = 4.23 g/cm3 are very different. Modern paint using titanium oxide also seem to give a stronger white resulting in much less white paint required to produce the same grey.

I’m not sure what this is about. I mixed using Humbrol Gloss White which is an off white not modern white. I did specifically mention that I tried the mixture using a modern gloss fridge white enamel and not to go there as the resulting grey is much much lighter.


regards,
Michael


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 Post subject: Re: On RN WW1 Grey
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 11:29 pm 
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Hi Michael,

So what is Black?

There is a lot of information on pigments in:
Pigment Compendium: A Dictionary and Optical Microscopy of Historical Pigments
By Nicholas Eastaugh, Valentine Walsh, Tracey Chaplin

From Lamp Black on page 222 comes the first usage of ordinary black; “Numerous descriptions of preparation exist, such as Peacham (1612): The making of ordinary lamp blacke.” So the usage of ‘Stiff’ and ‘Ordinary’ could be translated into ‘not runny’ and ‘normal’.

Why Titanium Dioxide?

Formulas for early paint all contain white lead, black, linseed oil, turpentine and driers. Modern paints contain only the black. You use Humbrol paints which unfortunately do not have detailed Material Safety Data Sheets (MSDS) which can give you clues to the composition of the paint. Here are three examples:

Testors Flat White From the MSDS

Titanium Dioxide 10-25 Weight Percent Range
Stoddard Solvent 10-25
Aliphatic Hydrocarbon 10-25
Hydrous Magnesium Silicate 5-10
Mineral Spirits 5-10
Amorphous Silica 5-10
Ethylbenzene 0.1-1.0

Testors Flat Black From the MSDS

Stoddard Solvent 10-25 Weight Percent Range
Aliphatic Hydrocarbon 10-25
Hydrous Magnesium Silicate 10-25
Mineral Spirits 5-10
Amorphous Silica 5-10
Carbon Black 1.0-2.5
Ethylbenzene 1-1.0

Model Master Gunship Grey From the MSDS

Stoddard Solvents 20 Weight Percent Less Than
Aliphatic Hydrocarbon 15
Titanium Dioxide 15
Mineral Spirits 10
Talc 10
Amorphous Silica 5
Carbon Black 5
Yellow Iron Oxide 5
Ethylbenzene 1
Solvent Naptha, Light Aromatic 1

Stoddard Solvent
Synonyms: Mineral spirits, Varsol 715, Petroleum solvent

Notice that:
1. In the white paint there is only Titanium Dioxide as a pigment at 10-25% by weight.
2. In the black paint there is only Carbon Black at 1-2.5% by weight, not that much is required suggesting the dry pigment.
3. In the gunship grey, a mid grey, note the ratio of Carbon Black to Titanium Dioxide, <5% to <15% by weight or 1:3. Also there is yellow iron oxide to modify the titanium dioxide white to something less stark. (This is also why it does not match Pattern No. 507B Grey.)

From the first page of this thread, Gunship Grey is along the lines of Pattern No. 507B in tone. In the original formulation of Pattern No. 507B 1:20 was the ratio used. Modern paint is so completely different in composition and in colour density that now a 1:3 mixture gives a similar tone of colour.

This is why I an suggesting that you can not use the traditional ratios in either weight or volume measure to get the traditional colours by mixing with modern paints.

Cheers,
George


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 Post subject: Re: On RN WW1 Grey
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 3:10 am 
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Thanks George,

I’ll try again anyway as my model shop has (well had after I went there) Humbrol white and black back in stock. However, what is the explanation for the anomalies I keep mentioning between Humbrol white and modern white enamel?

For Pattern 507, as well as Humbrol White, I mixed the first ratio using modern white enamel. I’ve said the results are that it is much lighter. Have a look at the attached. 507 with modern white enamel is much lighter than using Humbrol. It is so light that it is nearly the same as the results for 507B and C using Humbrol White.

Doesn’t this suggest that Humbrol white is not using Titanium Oxide as a base? If not, what is it using and if it is Titanium based, why does it give a different colour to modern white enamel.

I don’t think many shops stock Testors these days except for the spray cans. Some used to stock Model Master but when it went, the shops seem to move to stocking acrylics only. Revell used to make real paint too.

I’ll see if I can find any other company’s white and black enamel around and try that in a mixture. FleaBay here I come.

regards,
Michael


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 Post subject: Re: On RN WW1 Grey
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 9:50 am 
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Hi Michael,

A couple of questions for you;
1. Which manufacturer and what is the full name of the 'modern white enamel' that you are using?
2. Your jpg's, are they scans or photos?

Here in Calgary Model Masters and Testors are common place, it is the Humbrol that is hard to get.

Cheers,
George


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 Post subject: Re: On RN WW1 Grey
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 6:49 pm 
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I could have sworn Model Land has Humbrol in stock, George?

_________________
De quoi s'agit-il?


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 Post subject: Re: On RN WW1 Grey
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 7:26 pm 
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George,

1) White Knight Strokes Gloss White
http://www.whiteknightpaints.com.au/spe ... ve/strokes

I have asked if they have an MSDS but no reply so far. A long weekend here for the Queen’s Birthday.

2) Those were photos, a scan comparison attached. Neither really pick up the difference between the Humbrol and White Knight. The Humbrol 507 is darker than it looks in the photo and scan. I might try again today in the shade when the sun goes off the house.

I’ve found a model shop in Victoria which still has stock of Revell paints, so I’ll try them too. Will also see if mixing Humbrol in satin white and black makes a difference. I know that on models both go yellow after a couple of years in the sun.

Regards,

Michael


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 Post subject: Re: On RN WW1 Grey
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2015 8:24 am 
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George Hargreaves wrote:
Hi Michael,

A couple of questions for you;
1. Which manufacturer and what is the full name of the 'modern white enamel' that you are using?
2. Your jpg's, are they scans or photos?

Here in Calgary Model Masters and Testors are common place, it is the Humbrol that is hard to get.

Cheers,
George


George,

Amazing, Saturday evening of a long wekend and they replied.

Details attached.

Michael


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 Post subject: Re: On RN WW1 Grey
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2015 10:59 am 
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Hi Tim,

Thanks for the word. I shall make the pilgrimage from the far South to Model Land. When I was last in to (6 months ago) Chinook and PM South the racks were woefully bare.

Cheers,
George


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 Post subject: Re: On RN WW1 Grey
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2015 11:44 am 
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Hi Michael,

Three Topics come to mind; first is on lead paint in general, next is on viewing colour and then on ratios.

1. Lead Paint
There is a Global Alliance to Eliminate Lead Paint (GAELP). Lead has been determined a poison to humans and is not favourable to the environment. So many countries has severely constrained its use or banned the use of lead in paint. Lead Carbonate or White Lead is a banned substance for use in commercial paint. I would be surprised if it was still in Humbrol paint mixtures. It is still available in art supply stores in Canada so that is how I got my supply and yet another reason I only made a very small batch of paint. Here are four typical bans;
1. United States' Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) banned lead paint in 1977.
2. In 1992 European Union legislation was implemented within the U.K. by the Environmental Protection, part of the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA), as the Controls on Injurious Substances Regulations.
3. In Canada on October 2010, the Government amended the Surface Coating Materials Regulations to significantly lower the level of total lead allowed in paints and other surface coating materials from 600mg/kg to 90 mg/kg - which is equivalent to a lead concentration of 0.009%.
4. Lead was phased out from 1970 onward but is still allowed in paints, in 1991, the Australian NHMRC limit for lead in paint was 0.5% for domestic use. This figure was lowered to 0.25% in March 1992 and in 1997 was further lowered to 0.1% and was banned 11 Aug 2004.

2. Viewing Colour
The difference between the scanned result and the photo result of your colour chips simply confirms my concern of using photos for colour determination. Even using modern digital cameras you get difference dependent on technique. This is the fundamental reason I decided to blend the original formulas using a near as possible the original ingredients.

3. Ratios
White Knight Strokes Gloss White is a oil based high gloss enamel paint that has a very different composition to Model Master paint and very different from the white lead paint I blended together. Based on the little Humbrol gave on their MSDS I believe it should be similar to Model Master paint. For Pattern No. 507B the original 1:20 by weight I colour matched to 3:4 Blk:Wt or 1:1.33 by volume. By adding 1.29 mls of Humbrol Black into 14 Mls of Humbrol White this is a ratio of 1:10.85. By adding x10 the amount of white you have a significantly lighter grey than what the blend of white lead and carbon black formed in the original. I do not feel that your weight to volume ratio technique can be applied due to the nature of the radically different compositions from the old lead based paints to modern titanium dioxide based paints.

Cheers,
George


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 Post subject: Re: On RN WW1 Grey
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 4:09 am 
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George,

Back on deck again after a nasty little winter bug.

I can see where you are coming from but I’m not sure the blending to formula works either. On the shades you showed, to me the colours are very similar and Grey 1:20 (507B) and Light Grey 1:23 (507C) seem to be too dark. Models and photos show that the light grey is quite lighter than the dark grey. I know you don’t like photos or models but the photo I posted of the monitor and Magnificent at Mudros show quite a contrast and the one of Sydney shows the grey of the superstructure to be not much darker than the white on the men’s uniforms. Similarly models show 507 and 507A to be quite darker than 507C.

Either way, I’ve mixed some more up and there is some good news in it. Sticking with the modern white and mixing 507 again by adding more black results not surprisingly in a darker grey. However, it is still lighter than the original mix of 507 using Humbrol.

I redid the Humbrol ones on the new formula and the results are attached. Here is where the good news or bad news comes in. The “new” 507C is very close to the original S&S chip of 507C 1920. The real sample held by the AWM at Canberra was also very close to the same S&S colour chip. No 507A as not a chance of getting that much black into a 14mls tinlet.

One thing puzzling me is why S&S dated their 507C as 1920. We have a formula for it in 1915 and again in 1927 as a bluish grey. Has anyone seen an AFO between those dates?

BTW, if anyone wants to see the post war 507C, the AWM has available a one hour colour film taken on HMAS Vengeance in 1953 as she sailed from the UK to Australia. I’ve managed to get my hands on a copy of it.

Regards,
Michael


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 Post subject: Re: On RN WW1 Grey
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 4:48 pm 
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This is slightly deviating from the most recent posts but I wondered what peoples' views are about what is going on re greys on HMS Dreadnought as shown on the photograph of her in Rosyth, April-May 1916, in the "Anatomy of the Ship" book, page 64? The stern shows a stark vertical division between paint jobs - presumably the darker is new (the lighter looks weathered and the brushwork seems to work better this way). How would this relate to the 507 colours? A darker colour being painted now seems at odds with the general trend to lighter grey.

I am also a little confused about the timeline for use of the RN greys when looking at Dreadnought in the 1907 period (a Trumpeter 1/700 is on the stocks) as she appears much lighter than one might expect if the dark 507 colour (=White Ensign GW04?) is the standard then. WEM themselves suggest their GW02 but I have no idea what this looks like or what it is supposed to represent - a 507 series colour or not?

Cheers,

GrahamB


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 Post subject: Re: On RN WW1 Grey
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 11:04 pm 
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Hi Graham,

From page 64 with Dreadnought at Rosyth undergoing refit, the demarcation line at the stern is very rough. So rather than grey, my thought is that it is red lead that has been applied preparatory to a fresh coat of grey paint.

The grey is Pattern No. 507B Grey made by mixing 3 parts of black with 4 parts of white. If you go back to the first page of the thread, Figure 7 shows there are no real matches to the WEM GW series of grey. I believe the WEM GW series are matches for the greys used in Wilkinson dazzle schemes.

Cheers,
George


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 Post subject: Re: On RN WW1 Grey
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 11:18 pm 
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Thanks George, the possibility of red-lead had crossed my mind as well.
I'll go with the 507B grey for my 1907 model then - it just seemed at odds with the given sequence/timing of the greys' use.

Cheers,

GrahamB


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 Post subject: Re: On RN WW1 Grey
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 4:42 pm 
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Graham,

Sorry I missed the 1907 time period for your build. Dark grey 507 would be more appropriate or 3 parts black to 2 parts white.

George


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 Post subject: Re: On RN WW1 Grey
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 9:39 pm 
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Very quiet here lately. I visited Canberra recently to look through their copies of RN AFOs for anything of interest. They have them from 1910 > 1960. Unfortunately not a complete set with some being just parts of years and also entire years missing.

However, these should be of interest. 1825 of 1916 seems to be the AFO which names pattern 507C. Not admiralty pattern but simply pattern.

Now we just need the AFOs which brought in 507B etc as noted by Dittmar. Even better if 507A rated a mention in them somewhere.


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 Post subject: Re: On RN WW1 Grey
PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2015 4:40 am 
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Frankly, the modelers' search for definitive colors is like a unicorn hunt. In the mid-1980's I asked the father of a friend of mine who made US federal specification paints how close he was able to come to the government swatches with his batches. He laughed. He then retailed the usual story: all depended on weather, humidity, the current store of ingredients, who was doing the preparation that day, etc, etc, etc. In sum, the final product resembled the government swatch, but he never was able to produce an exact match, and nobody ever expected to get an exact match from his company. I saw the CVN TRUMAN and her escorts at Norfolk VA in March 2011. These were in-service warships in port to resupply, not grungy reserve ships, not immaculate museum ships. The big carrier, a gigantic "canvas" for illustrating the pitfalls of assuming warships could be as ideal as a tiny model, looked like she had an advanced case of paint blight. Her flanks were a patchwork of varying mixes, such a variety of values and subtle variations in chroma you could not really assess which were the "on spec" color and which were renegades. The same went for her escorts, but the effect was not quite as pronounced because they did not have such colossal verticals.

The chances of getting on spec colors 100 years later are remote. There are clues, like the chunk of the side of the BARHAM preserved at the Imperial War Museum which was perforated by a German shell at Jutland, or a fragment of one of HAMPSHIRE's boats washed ashore after her sinking. My favored means to get an idea of the colors is to look at as many period watercolors and oil paintings as possible in museums (less satisfactory, online or in books)---and cross my fingers. An artist has the best possible eye for color. I hit the jackpot when I was reading a book by a person who was around the Rosyth ships in 1914-16. He described their color as "French gray", a keen sense for interior decoration to the rescue. To me this was worth stacks of specifications for long gone ingrediants no doubt randomly assembled by the users.

I find any claim to definitiveness by model paint manufacturers, producers of swatches for modelers, or idealists who think they can hit the bullseye by trying to replicate exact ingredients and proportions of paint produced under quite different conditions 100 years ago to be questionable.

P.S.

I stared at the planks of the HAMPSHIRE boat for about 30 minutes at the IWM in 1993, and my notes taken at the time, not having my MUNSELL BOOK OF COLOR at hand, were "medium gray with a hint of blue". Now, accounting for the immersion of the planks in sea water for who knows how long, and the age of the artifact, 83 years, I present this, again, with crossed fingers. Unfortunately, the BARHAM plate was reversed so that all I could see was the white interior color, but I would love to see the outboard side.

I forgot to mention the best source for approximating WWI RN ship finishes: the extraordinary collections of builders' models of warships in museums from Scotland to England. The colossal HMS QUEEN MARY in the National Maritime Museum should be a natural "go to" for any serious researcher. Museums also have ship models made by maritime artists in this period, certainly an excellent source. The difference between the dark gray of QM and the lighter gray of the massive BARHAM builder's model ought to set off alarm bells. There are reasonably good answers to the color question. Documents and official swatches are indicators, but they are not the Holy Grail.

For example, a careful look at the Charles Pears collection at the Imperial War Museum indicates that Rosyth, where he was during WWI, used a green anti-fouling paint on capital ships and lesser vessels.

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/21401


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 Post subject: Re: On RN WW1 Grey
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2015 10:54 am 
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Good Afternoon Everyone,

I am very late to this discussion, but read this thread again after reading the AP507 thread on Steelnavy. Regarding JHS' post about artists and builders models, I think JHS has made a fair point about artist's paintings and builder's models even given artist's and builder's licence. What I would like to add is when I saw the model of HMS Indomitable at the old Museum of Transport in Glasgow, I was surprised at how blue it was - it was a dark grey with more than a hint of purple blue. At the time, I remembered having read that pre-WW1 and WW1 greys had no blue in them and this was a later development. The blueness of the dark grey it was painted (if that makes sense) came as a real surprise.

I did have a photograph of the model, but it's long lost on one of my now "dead" computers.

Best Wishes,

Will1957.


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