The Ship Model Forum

The Ship Modelers Source
It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 7:54 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 7 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 11:38 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2016 8:30 am
Posts: 5
I'm trying to work out the colours of the scheme as worn by HMS Onslow at the Barents Sea in December 1942 (and also her other schemes) - I'm just wondering if anyone here has any advice given all the excellent work on HMS Prince of Wales and B5/B15.

So far I have (with guesses of shades used) -
As completed - overall dark grey (? 'Home fleet grey' AP507A), light coloured pennant number (?white) (photo on 'warship photo archive'/ and in Ensign 6). Noted that it is unusual for the flotilla leader to carry a number and the pennant number does not appear in later schemes.

Early 1942 (Feb-May) light grey upperworks (AP507C)/dark grey hull (AP507A), with funnel bands (red & white), as per IWM photos and IWM model by Glossop

November 1942 - Special Emergency Fleet Destroyer Scheme, white base, intermediate tone forward/upperworks panels (I guess B30 or G20), dark after hull panel (possibly 507A or G20) -

based on photos here http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/s ... #post36695 - showing Onslow from Cumberland, these were pre 1943 refit (no lattice mast), Onslow sailed with Cumberland in November 1942

and also here http://www.navyphotos.co.uk/Destroyers% ... dww23b.jpg

December 1942, and on return from the Barents sea in early 1943 (from IWM photos) Special Emergency Fleet Destroyer Scheme - white, forward panels in a dark grey -likely 507A or G10, after hull panel and after upperworks in lighter shade (possibly B30 - in 'Profile Morskie'). I have seen a model using two blue shades for the hull panel however I think the appearance in the photo is due to weathering and repainting?

After 1943 refit - Special Emergency Fleet Destroyer Scheme, unsure of colours... not got further than this as yet.

I'd be really interested to hear any thoughts people have on this. From my reading of the other threads, G10/G20/B30 were 'formalized' in AFOs 1943, but from Raven's account of RN Camouflage on the Shipcamouflage site, these shades were beginning to be used in SEFD schemes from late 1942 so it is plausible that B30 would be used on Onslow in 1942?

James


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 4:56 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2014 2:10 am
Posts: 179
Location: Australia
FYI, Admiralty records show that the new colours were still under discussion in mid October 1942.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:27 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2014 3:33 am
Posts: 102
Location: Brisbane. Australia
Hello James,

I am not sure that I can help to tie the paints down with any exactitude, but I can offer some observations.

At the time of the North Cape action in Dec 42, Onslow would have been in the MS series paints. The A1 G and B series paints were first promulgated in AFO 2106/43 in May 1943. The MS series that existed from early 1941, or thereabouts, was matt (as were 507A and 507C at this time, per CAFO 290/1941, issued Feb 1941) and the matt paints were found to be of inadequate durability. The A1 G and B series that replaced the MS series had linseed oil added to the paints to increase their durability (and so were slightly glossy).

AFO 2106/43 and CB3098/43 together tell us that A1 B30 as a practical match for B6 in colour and tone, and G20 as a practical match for MS3 in colour and tone. They also explain that G10 and 507A are exactly the same colour and tone, as are G45 and 507C (again, the finish is slightly different).

Prior to her repairs, Onslow was in a what appears to be a three-paint Special Emergency Fleet Scheme, as you have shown. She emerged from those repairs in what appears to be a two-paint scheme of the same style (it looks like a simple over-paint of the two darker tones into one tone). The following links help to confirm this, the first being Onslow on return from North Cape, the second being after the ensuing repairs:

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205147517
http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205120251

(That image from worldnavalships.com throws me a bit: as nice as it is, I think that the contrast is out to a considerable degree, so other than its role in indicating that there were three paints, I will avoid being distracted by it for this discussion.)

(The Polish ship modelling community takes quite an interest in the O and P class destroyers, as you may know. There is a 1/200 paper model of Onslow from Modelik that makes it look as if they intend to show her in MS1, B6 and Admiralty white, as does Profile Morskie on their website. What they have based that on, I don't know, and I would view it with some hesitation, but here is the model if you are interested http://i-am-modelist.com/2012/05/28/hms-onslow/ )

Alan Raven's Warship Perspectives RN series covers the SEFS in Volumes 2 and 3, but not this scheme specifically. He does use the wrong nomenclature for the paints prior to AFO 2106/43's release, but we can see what he is portraying, and that is a range of schemes using G10/507A, G20/MS3, B30/B6, G45/507C, and white. His sources are never directly quoted for each proposed scheme, so again I approach the information with hesitation, but that does help to narrow the likely options. His advice is also backed to some degree by Hodges, however, in RN Warship Camouflage 1939-1945 on pp 70 and 71. He shows Barfluer and Tartar in late SEFS variants, the paints used being G20, B30, G45 and white.

I think that you could therefore assume with some level of comfort that at the North Cape action, the lightest paint was white, as you have suggested.

The mid-range paint seems too dark in contrast to the lightest paint to be 507C, so I suggest that it is B6.

The darkest paint could be either MS3 or 507A. To state what is probably obvious, the purpose of these schemes was to balance the desired invisibility to U boats with the need for visibility to the fleet. The compromise made was for the bows to be light to hide the vessel (in the manner of the WA schemes) when attacking head-on, but darkly contrasting at the sides to make them more visible to the fleet and so avoid collisions whilst station-keeping. With that in mind, I have trouble seeing the bows as being 507A - the contrast with white would seem too great to help hide them from head-on. It would seem more 'dazzle' than 'disruptive'. My gut feel is that it is G20/MS3.

Based on all of that, if I was to take a punt (and without documentary evidence, it can never be more than that), I would offer MS3, B6 and white as the scheme.

Regards,
Lindsay


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 1:38 am 
Offline
SovereignHobbies
SovereignHobbies

Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2015 9:09 am
Posts: 1176
Location: Aberdeenshire, Scotland, UK
elcejay wrote:
AFO 2106/43 and CB3098/43 together tell us that A1 B30 as a practical match for B6 in colour and tone, and G20 as a practical match for MS3 in colour and tone. They also explain that G10 and 507A are exactly the same colour and tone, as are G45 and 507C (again, the finish is slightly different).

Regards,
Lindsay


To strengthen and potentially clarify what Lindsay is correctly saying, 507A and 507C are documented to be the same shades as G10 and G45 respectively but with different sheens.

For MS3 and G20, or B6 and B30, what the Admiralty decided was important was the light reflectance value much more so than the actual hue of the colour, so the documents Lindsay referenced introduce G20 and B30 as replacements for MS3 and B6 and filling the same gaps in the graduated colour palette. G20 would be used instead of MS3 and B30 would be used instead of B6, but whilst very similar in tone they were not exactly the same colours.

Lindsay's word choice did not imply anything otherwise, but incase it was too subtle I thought I'd spell it out save any mistaken ideas started :)

_________________
James Duff
Sovereign Hobbies Ltd
http://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk

Current build:
HMS Imperial D09 1/350
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 3:17 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:44 pm
Posts: 650
Location: UK
I guess the Navyphotos picture is summer 1942 and Onslow’s first SEFD scheme and I think I see four colours, B-E.

Attachment:
Onslow 1942 7 ish - Copy (2).jpg


If you look really closely at the photo taken from Cumberland in Nov 1942 I think you will see that Onslow is in 4 colours then too, possibly exactly the same as in the NavyPhotos picture.

Attachment:
Onslow 1942 11 ish d - Copy (2).jpg


However photos taken in Dec 1942 seem to show an adjustment to the original colour scheme with some of the hull aft painted to the lighter D tone and panels previously C forward painted darker tone A. This poor quality photo emphasises this.

Attachment:
Onslow 1942 12 - Copy (2).jpg


The IWM photo referenced by Lindsay of the return to Scapa in Feb 1943 seems to show she was still in this arrangement of colours at that time.

She emerges from the repairs in April 1943 in more or less same design of 4 colours but with the hull aft back to being the same as the hull amidships and some slight tweaks to the shape of the camouflage panels here and there. This photo was taken 25 April 1943 one day after the IWM photo referenced by Lindsay which shows the same.

Attachment:
Onslow 1943 4 25 b - Copy (2).jpg


Looking at photos of other O class destroyers it seems to me that the Flotilla was experimenting with both the design of the scheme, the colours used, and the disposition of the darker and lighter panels from the summer of 1942 well into 1943 so I would not place over-much emphasis on the ultimate official design and its palette of G20, B30, G45 and white (which was promulgated in CB3098R in May 1943) when attempting to guess the colours used in 1942 and early 1943.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:30 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2014 3:33 am
Posts: 102
Location: Brisbane. Australia
Reviewing the images, I am comfortable with Richard's suggestion that there were four paints in the scheme in late 42. (It is so hard to compare shades on the hull to shades on the superstructure, given the different angles and the changes in the lighting that plays on them.)

The shades that I have suggested above would be paints B, C and E as Richard has marked them on the late 42 images. B being MS3, C being B6 and E being white. That would make D most likely to be 507C.

I had not noted the fleet destroyer scheme in CB3098/43 when I made the above post. I agree with Richard that it is likely to be the final result of the experimentation with different shades and panel arrangements that we see in the photos of Onslow and other ships in SEFS in '42 and early '43. It is perhaps comforting, however, that it is in the equivalent shades (G20, B30, G45 and white) to what I am proposing for this late 42 scheme.

Again, I do not suggest that my analysis is definitive, James, but I hope that it helps.

Regards,
Lindsay


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:56 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2016 8:30 am
Posts: 5
Thank you for the very detailed replies and analysis! I need to digest it all a bit and go back to the references. Project is still in the early stages but a great help.

It's interesting that there's more to it than the initial references suggest with the introduction of SEFD schemes with other colours before the 1943 set.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 7 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests


You can post new topics in this forum
You can reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group