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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:53 am 
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Just a quick enquiry after receiving the 1/700 Trumpeter Hood (1941) and a Flyhawk brass set. I am finding that the confusion of the AP 507A and B colours still prevails.

What colour was the grey scheme as in May 1941? Several sites, such WEM and Sovereign Models are still calling it Medium Grey AP507B whereas this is now supposed to be the same colour as the dark Home Fleet grey AP507A. The grey being painted on the ship in October 1940 (page 213 of Bruce Taylor's wonderful The Battlecruiser HMS Hood) seems to be a medium grey, not dark. :scratch:

Cheers
GrahamB

A Flyhawk 1/500 Derrflinger almost finished - lovely kit and impressive ship.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:36 am 
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Check the HMS Hood association website. They seem adamant that it was the medium grey and even have photos of the wreck with remaining paint to prove their theory. I am personally leaning towards their evidence and think the medium grey looks much better for a model ship than the darker grey.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:44 am 
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Thanks Sutho - I've been using that excellent site for information but even they now state that Hood's "AP507B" was actually the Home Fleet Dark Grey!
No resolution there either :(
Cheers
Graham


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:53 am 
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Please note that the Hood site has to take the new paint research results into account as far as the AP507A/B/C usage is concerned. My recommendation how to mix your own 507b. Humbrol 34 (white), 77 (navy blue) and 140 (gull grey) mixed that is a perfect match for the WEM tin may now be a bit off. I have to get my hands on a new tin by Sovereignhobbies and see if that still makes any sense. I also think that Semtex was used on the main (steel) deck, so it should be a light grey if that is so (also waiting for a Sovereignhobbies tin).


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:48 am 
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The Hood Association site is run by Frank Allen and it's a part-time thing as most information sites are. The schemes on our own site were written in WEM days. Following this thread, I've made a start on updating them where I can. Some (disruptive pattern schemes) need to be revisited though.

The medium grey thing, wherever it is stated, appears to be baseless. I'd thought that was demonstrated but I may be struggling to articulate the point definitively enough. The full expanded description of Home Fleet grey was "Dark Grey, Home Fleet shade". From 1936 to 1940 this paint was only listed in the Rate Book as Admiralty Pattern 507B.

AFO211/39 introduced Admiralty Patter 507A on 19th January 1939:
Quote:
Dark grey paint, Home Fleet shade, for other than weather work, is being added to the Authorised List as Pattern 507a. The formula is the same as for Pattern 507B except that the enamel is omitted.

2. The description of Pattern 507B has been amplified to read:- "Paint mixed dark grey, Home Fleet shade, for weather work"


Capital ships on Home Fleet station in Home Fleet Grey.

CB3016 extract memo on 18th December 1939 read:
Quote:
Sir,
With reference to your letter No.N.C.388/6801 of 8th November , 1939, I am commanded by My Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty to inform you that H.M. Ships on foreign stations are painted as follows (vide C.B.3016(37), paragraph 261), and C.B.3016 (34), paragraph 179):-

Cruisers and larger vessels - light grey all over
Destroyers - dark grey hulls and light grey upper works
Submarines - royal blue on Mediterranean Station, and a dark olive colour on China Station.

2. All ships of the Home Fleet, including submarines, are painted Home Fleet grey, and a matt surface paint is employed both at home and on foreign stations.


Home Fleet Temporary Memorandum 288 dated 20th August 1940 reinforces the evidence for use of Home Fleet grey with this:
Quote:
...
2. Capital ships and aircraft carriers of the Home Fleet when in Home Waters are to be painted Home Fleet Grey. Cruisers, at the discretion... blah blah etc etc



If a medium grey was in use on capital ships, the Admiralty were entirely unaware of it, and furthermore the fleets were in mass disobedience of the Admiralty.

The only reference to a medium grey existing in a formal capacity is within the context of CAFO 1112/42 (available to download from my website https://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk/pages/royal-navy-colours-of-world-war-two-c-a-f-o-1112-camouflage-of-sea-going-ships-june-1942) which permits a mix of 507A and 507C, named as Home Fleet grey and gave this specific context:
Quote:
V. EMERGENCY DESIGNS : CAMOUFLAGE WITHOUT PATTERN
21. In the following paragraphs instructions are given for painting a ship with a simple equivalent
of each class of design described in Section III above, using only White, Home Fleet Grey and
Mediterranean Grey.
These schemes of painting will be of about the same value for concealment as patterned designs,
but will produce less confusion. They are intended for use when there is no time to obtain or paint to a
pattered camouflage design.
Little experience has been gained with these emergency designs and the equivalent (a) of LIGHT
TONE designs should not be applied to ships larger than Destroyers, except for special operations, owing
to the increased visibility in sunlight.
(a) Equivalent of LIGHT TONE Designs. All weather work should be painted pure white except
for a band right round the ship, extending from the water-line half-way up to the forecastle
deck or half-way up to the upper deck in ships without a forecastle deck. This band should be
Light Grey Admiralty Pattern 507C and should cover the boot topping (vide C.A.F.O.
2515/41).
(b) Equivalent of LIGHT MEDIUM TONE Designs. – All weather work should be painted Light
Grey Admiralty Pattern 507C except for a band right round the ship, extending from the
water-line half-way up to the forecastle deck or half-way up to the upper deck in ships
without a forecastle deck. This band should be painted with a mixture of equal parts Light
Grey Admiralty Pattern 507C and Dark Grey Admiralty Pattern 507A
, and should cover the
boot topping (vide C.A.F.O. 2515/41).
(c) Equivalent of DARK MEDIUM TONE Designs. – All weather work should be painted with a
mixture of equal parts Light Grey Admiralty Pattern 507C and Dark Grey Admiralty Pattern
507A.
(d) Equivalent of DARK TONE Designs. – All upper works should be painted with a mixture of
equal parts Light Grey Admiralty Pattern 507C and Dark Grey Admiralty Pattern 507A.
The
hull should be painted all Dark Grey Admiralty Pattern 507A.
(e) In all Schemes of Painting the undersides of platforms and horizontal projections, blast
shields, etc. should be painted White. All parts of a ship which are permanently in shade or
shadow should also be painted White.

My bold above


I have seen not one shred of evidence that an all over medium grey scheme existed. Even the CAFO1112 emergency mix above was only to be used on part of the ship, not all over.

There was a little wriggle room on the exact tone of Home Fleet Grey, as described in here https://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk/pages/royal-navy-colours-of-world-war-two-pattern-507s-g10-and-g45.


The only challenge attempted on the above was on Steel Navy, where Alan Raven told me that Claude Muncaster had told him that 507B was a mix of 507A and 507C. Given that we know the Admiralty was publishing Rate Books and Fleet Orders which directly contradict that, we may explain that anomaly by speculating that Claude Muncaster was infact referring to the emergency mix paint - something that did happen during his tenure.


To repeat - if there ever was a Admiralty Pattern 507B Medium Grey during the run up to or during the Second World War, the Admiralty was unaware of it - because the Admiralty believed it was Dark Grey, Home Fleet shade - or simply Home Fleet Grey.

On a model it's immaterial as in real life the only visible difference was whether it had a glossy or a matt finish.

As posted previously on this site, this is our 13%RF version of Home Fleet Grey outdoors against a black pseudo boot-topping. That chip is one of six cut from a post card sprayed with the prototype shade I mixed, measured and iterated:

Image
Image

As evidenced, the dark grey looks right in context. They trouble everyone is probably having is getting their head around the fact that Snyder & Short's 507A and B are BOTH non-representative of Home Fleet Grey. The "507A Dark Grey" is too dark and the "507B Medium Grey" is too light. Neither of them is a good representation of Home Fleet Grey. As some can only apparently process a single variable at a time, upon hearing that 507B "Medium Grey" didn't exist they default to their present very dark impression of 507A then struggle to reconcile that with photographic evidence from the real ships.

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Sovereign Hobbies Ltd
http://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk

Current build:
HMS Imperial D09 1/350
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151


Last edited by SovereignHobbies on Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:21 am 
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SovereignHobbies wrote:
The Hood Association site is run by Frank Allen and it's a part-time thing as most information sites are.

The medium grey thing, wherever it is stated, appears to be baseless. I'd thought that was demonstrated but I may be struggling to articulate the point definitively enough. The full expanded description of Home Fleet grey was "Dark Grey, Home Fleet shade". From 1936 to 1940 this paint was only listed in the Rate Book as Admiralty Pattern 507B.

AFO211/39 introduced Admiralty Patter 507A on 19th January 1939:
Quote:
Dark grey paint, Home Fleet shade, for other than weather work, is being added to the Authorised List as Pattern 507a. The formula is the same as for Pattern 507B except that the enamel is omitted.

2. The description of Pattern 507B has been amplified to read:- "Paint mixed dark grey, Home Fleet shade, for weather work"


Capital ships on Home Fleet station in Home Fleet Grey.

CB3016 extract memo on 18th December 1939 read:
Quote:
Sir,
With reference to your letter No.N.C.388/6801 of 8th November , 1939, I am commanded by My Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty to inform you that H.M. Ships on foreign stations are painted as follows (vide C.B.3016(37), paragraph 261), and C.B.3016 (34), paragraph 179):-

Cruisers and larger vessels - light grey all over
Destroyers - dark grey hulls and light grey upper works
Submarines - royal blue on Mediterranean Station, and a dark olive colour on China Station.

2. All ships of the Home Fleet, including submarines, are painted Home Fleet grey, and a matt surface paint is employed both at home and on foreign stations.


Home Fleet Temporary Memorandum 288 dated 20th August 1940 reinforces the evidence for use of Home Fleet grey with this:
Quote:
...
2. Capital ships and aircraft carriers of the Home Fleet when in Home Waters are to be painted Home Fleet Grey. Cruisers, at the discretion... blah blah etc etc



If a medium grey was in use on capital ships, the Admiralty were entirely unaware of it, and furthermore the fleets were in mass disobedience of the Admiralty.

The only reference to a medium grey existing in a formal capacity is within the context of CAFO 1112/42 (available to download from my website https://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk/pages/royal-navy-colours-of-world-war-two-c-a-f-o-1112-camouflage-of-sea-going-ships-june-1942) which permits a mix of 507A and 507C, named as Home Fleet grey and gave this specific context:
Quote:
V. EMERGENCY DESIGNS : CAMOUFLAGE WITHOUT PATTERN
21. In the following paragraphs instructions are given for painting a ship with a simple equivalent
of each class of design described in Section III above, using only White, Home Fleet Grey and
Mediterranean Grey.
These schemes of painting will be of about the same value for concealment as patterned designs,
but will produce less confusion. They are intended for use when there is no time to obtain or paint to a
pattered camouflage design.
Little experience has been gained with these emergency designs and the equivalent (a) of LIGHT
TONE designs should not be applied to ships larger than Destroyers, except for special operations, owing
to the increased visibility in sunlight.
(a) Equivalent of LIGHT TONE Designs. All weather work should be painted pure white except
for a band right round the ship, extending from the water-line half-way up to the forecastle
deck or half-way up to the upper deck in ships without a forecastle deck. This band should be
Light Grey Admiralty Pattern 507C and should cover the boot topping (vide C.A.F.O.
2515/41).
(b) Equivalent of LIGHT MEDIUM TONE Designs. – All weather work should be painted Light
Grey Admiralty Pattern 507C except for a band right round the ship, extending from the
water-line half-way up to the forecastle deck or half-way up to the upper deck in ships
without a forecastle deck. This band should be painted with a mixture of equal parts Light
Grey Admiralty Pattern 507C and Dark Grey Admiralty Pattern 507A
, and should cover the
boot topping (vide C.A.F.O. 2515/41).
(c) Equivalent of DARK MEDIUM TONE Designs. – All weather work should be painted with a
mixture of equal parts Light Grey Admiralty Pattern 507C and Dark Grey Admiralty Pattern
507A.
(d) Equivalent of DARK TONE Designs. – All upper works should be painted with a mixture of
equal parts Light Grey Admiralty Pattern 507C and Dark Grey Admiralty Pattern 507A.
The
hull should be painted all Dark Grey Admiralty Pattern 507A.
(e) In all Schemes of Painting the undersides of platforms and horizontal projections, blast
shields, etc. should be painted White. All parts of a ship which are permanently in shade or
shadow should also be painted White.

My bold above


I have seen not one shred of evidence that an all over medium grey scheme existed. Even the CAFO1112 emergency mix above was only to be used on part of the ship, not all over.

There was a little wriggle room on the exact tone of Home Fleet Grey, as described in here https://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk/pages/royal-navy-colours-of-world-war-two-pattern-507s-g10-and-g45.


The only challenge attempted on the above was on Steel Navy, where Alan Raven told me that Claude Muncaster had told him that 507B was a mix of 507A and 507C. Given that we know the Admiralty was publishing Rate Books and Fleet Orders which directly contradict that, we may explain that anomaly by speculating that Claude Muncaster was infact referring to the emergency mix paint - something that did happen during his tenure.


To repeat - if there ever was a Admiralty Pattern 507B Medium Grey during the run up to or during the Second World War, the Admiralty was unaware of it - because the Admiralty believed it was Dark Grey, Home Fleet shade - or simply Home Fleet Grey.

On a model it's immaterial as in real life the only visible difference was whether it had a glossy or a matt finish.

As posted previously on this site, this is our 13%RF version of Home Fleet Grey outdoors against a black pseudo boot-topping. That chip is one of six cut from a post card sprayed with the prototype shade I mixed, measured and iterated:

Image
Image

As evidenced, the dark grey looks right in context. They trouble everyone is probably having is getting their head around the fact that Snyder & Short's 507A and B are BOTH non-representative of Home Fleet Grey. The "507A Dark Grey" is too dark and the "507B Medium Grey" is too light. Neither of them is a good representation of Home Fleet Grey. As some can only apparently process a single variable at a time, upon hearing that 507B "Medium Grey" didn't exist they default to their present very dark impression of 507A then struggle to reconcile that with photographic evidence from the real ships.



Thanks for that detailed reply. Do you have a suggested correction for paint mixing with existing WEM paints based on Snyder and Short of what to mix into their 507A and 507B to make it represent home fleet grey?

It appears that the Hood Association website was going off these chips and they were of the conclusion as you clearly stated that 507A of snyder and short was too dark.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:33 am 
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5 parts RN01 to 2 parts RN02 will get you close to a 13% Home Fleet Grey. :thumbs_up_1:

RN02 was always a more dense pigmentation than RN01, hence the proportionate bias there. Numerically, Home Fleet Grey's reflectivity factor is close to half way between the two.

Note that is specific to Colourcoats. I have no idea how other brands e.g. Lifecolor or Hataka which are also Snyder and Short copies are pigmented, so if 5:2 works for those brands also it'll be a fluke.

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http://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk

Current build:
HMS Imperial D09 1/350
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:30 am 
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You can't really trust photos to work out medium or light grey. Look at these shots, same model wearing G10 & G45. The photos were taken one minute apart.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:15 am 
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Quote:
Even the CAFO1112 emergency mix above was only to be used on part of the ship, not all over.


But isn't that the scheme for C? Or am I misinterpreting what is covered by "weather work"?

(c) Equivalent of DARK MEDIUM TONE Designs. – All weather work should be painted with a
mixture of equal parts Light Grey Admiralty Pattern 507C and Dark Grey Admiralty Pattern
507A.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:48 am 
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Timmy C wrote:
Quote:
Even the CAFO1112 emergency mix above was only to be used on part of the ship, not all over.


But isn't that the scheme for C? Or am I misinterpreting what is covered by "weather work"?

(c) Equivalent of DARK MEDIUM TONE Designs. – All weather work should be painted with a
mixture of equal parts Light Grey Admiralty Pattern 507C and Dark Grey Admiralty Pattern
507A.



That may be a possibility. To be honest we haven't quite nailed an exact definition of what they meant by weatherwork. The uses of the term seem a little inconsistent.

So yeah, I soften the above a bit - Hood may have been in an overall emergency scheme C, but there are lots of observation reports from 1941 comparing various present ships in HFG with disruptive patterns - so we know HFG was still in widespread use into 1941.

I think it's harder to justify an odd-ball emergency camouflage design using extant facts - particularly on a ship like Hood which had drydock time not too shortly prior?? which could/would have been in disruptive pattern had they wished to do that.

The medium grey opinion is a hangover from an earlier misunderstanding.

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Sovereign Hobbies Ltd
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Current build:
HMS Imperial D09 1/350
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:39 pm 
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Wow - I didn't mean to set all this off - MANY THANKS - but some points:

I was quite aware of the new research saying that AP507A and AP507B were the same colour (but with different enamel content) but this didn't really help in deciding what colour HMS Hood was painted (October 1940 - the new paint looking decidedly paler than the old part of the hull in the picture).

Also, now that Sovereign Paints have replied in detail, how to explain this anomaly?

The medium grey thing, wherever it is stated, appears to be baseless. Yet, in the new paint range a medium grey colour (cat. no. NARN24) called an "emergency mix" of AP507A and C is offered. I'm probably as thick as two planks though.

GrahamB


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:52 pm 
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GrahamB wrote:
Wow - I didn't mean to set all this off - MANY THANKS - but some points:

I was quite aware of the new research saying that AP507A and AP507B were the same colour (but with different enamel content) but this didn't really help in deciding what colour HMS Hood was painted (October 1940 - the new paint looking decidedly paler than the old part of the hull in the picture).

Also, now that Sovereign Paints have replied in detail, how to explain this anomaly?

The medium grey thing, wherever it is stated, appears to be baseless. Yet, in the new paint range a medium grey colour (cat. no. NARN24) called an "emergency mix" of AP507A and C is offered. I'm probably as thick as two planks though.

GrahamB


Don't worry it is a good thing to have these discussions as it helps all of us. What was 100% clear from the Hood Association website was that they were not confident that it was painted in Snyder and Shorts version of 507A which makes sense now that Sovereign have indicated that the paints was in fact too dark.

More research on Hood is needed because there are photos of the ship with three tones and turret A and B in different shades to the rest of the ship. By the time of Bismarck the whole paintwork may have been more even.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:23 pm 
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Thanks again Sutho. I've seen the HMS Hood Association's article about the probable changes of Hood's appearance in early 1941 and it's a complex story. Turrets A and B are the centre of this although most of the upper-works in the pre-April-May time slot look paler than the hull.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:58 am 
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We have seen written records which corroborate well with industry knowledge that many of these paints darkened in service.

Captain Tennant even wrote suggesting that HFG be lightened so that it darkened after a week or two to the intended tone of HFG, rather than starting with fresh HFG and week later it's starting to look darker etc. If there was any consideration of this suggestion it hasn't survived and the recipe for G10 published later did not evidence any change in pigment ratios from before Tennant's suggestion - so I believe that latching on to this to justify a medium grey is also unsupported by other facts. It's useful because it shows us that freshly applied HFG looked a bit lighter than the old HFG it was overcoating.

Darkening in service comes from all sorts of mechanisms, and it is a mistake to think seawater cleans things - it doesn't! Also, the effects of funnel efflux are easy to underestimate.

Hence, seeing fresh paint going on which appears a few percent lighter in tone than the old paint doesn't surprise me in the least.

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Current build:
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:28 am 
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One thing in this discussion that hasn’t really been touched on, not specifically the Hood, is that there were many examples of RN ships, mainly cruisers and destroyers, that were in a three toned grey schemes. We now know about 507A/B, with only the difference in reflectance, and 507C, what was the third grey? Many of the ships in the Mediterranean used this three toned grey scheme. The logical conclusion is that it was the emergency mix. What it boils down to is we will have the basic colors for the Royal Navy with this new release from Sovereign, and you can lighten or darken them to suit your modeling requirements. Especially in 1/700 scale. I lighten almost everything, especially dark colors, on models.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:13 pm 
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HMS Naiad is one example which was definitely wearing 3 different tones of something in 1940 but I couldn't say one way or the other if they were definitely all greys.

1940 does seem to have seen some experimental schemes with unofficial colours, some we know about (e.g. documents ordering the cessation of unofficial green and brown blotchy schemes) and plenty more that there doesn't seem to be much official written about.

However I feel that muddies the waters with high profile capital ships like Hood. I recognise that the idea of finding something unique and interesting appeals to many, but in the case of Hood there is plenty historical record to support an entirely ordinary Home Fleet Grey scheme and not very much to support a custom mix of something else.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:04 pm 
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I recognise that the idea of finding something unique and interesting appeals to many

I think this is a nasty slur actually. I'm just trying to follow what evidence I can read (and see from photographs) and paint my model as accurately as it is possible to do - not seeking something "different" just for the sake of it. Quite a lot of what is published online and in books can be erroneous and so-called facts become dogma - Luftwaffe camouflage and colours especially. Also see the confusion of the Royal Navy greys that this thread is partly based on !! I consider myself a good observer of differences and similarities, being a professional taxonomist (someone who studies biodiversity, describing new species, genera etc) and a modeler of 50 years' experience.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:11 am 
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Hi Graham,

No slur was intended so please don't think it was meant as such.

There are many like yourself (and myself) who want confirmation of the orthodox but unusual schemes do appeal to many also just for their diversity which is reasonable - a different scheme is interesting and I'm always keen on one if I can satisfy myself it's right.

All I'm saying, and directing at nobody in particular but rather taking account that these words will be here for others to see for a long time after we've moved on to other subjects, that any desire to justify an atypical scheme for Hood specifically should consider the relative weights of evidence supporting a normal HFG scheme versus that suggesting something else.

To reiterate, no slur was intended :) I'm merely stating for the record that my money is on HFG in line with all the stated documentation and normal practises at that point in time for capital ships of the Home Fleet. :thumbs_up_1:

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 2:04 am 
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Dan Banks wrote:
One thing in this discussion that hasn’t really been touched on, not specifically the Hood, is that there were many examples of RN ships, mainly cruisers and destroyers, that were in a three toned grey schemes. We now know about 507A/B, with only the difference in reflectance, and 507C, what was the third grey? Many of the ships in the Mediterranean used this three toned grey scheme. The logical conclusion is that it was the emergency mix. What it boils down to is we will have the basic colors for the Royal Navy with this new release from Sovereign, and you can lighten or darken them to suit your modeling requirements. Especially in 1/700 scale. I lighten almost everything, especially dark colors, on models.


Re the Mediterranean Fleet multi tone schemes introduced in August 1940, I'm afraid that there is no general way of knowing what the medium and darker shades of grey were. All proportions of mixes were possible. To quote from the Mediterranean Fleet War diary of 7th August 1940:

"All ships are being dazzle painted on the following principles:

(a) A foundation of Mediterranean grey
(b) Dazzles of a darker colour, chosen by Commanding Officers, but of not too strong a contrast."

So whilst it would be logical to assume that many used HFG as the dark shade, and that a 50/50 mix was also perfectly logical for something in-between, I think that the evidence relating to each ship has to be considered on a case by case basis......


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SovereignHobbies wrote:
The Hood Association site is run by Frank Allen and it's a part-time thing as most information sites are. The schemes on our own site were written in WEM days. Following this thread, I've made a start on updating them where I can. Some (disruptive pattern schemes) need to be revisited though.

The medium grey thing, wherever it is stated, appears to be baseless. I'd thought that was demonstrated but I may be struggling to articulate the point definitively enough. The full expanded description of Home Fleet grey was "Dark Grey, Home Fleet shade". From 1936 to 1940 this paint was only listed in the Rate Book as Admiralty Pattern 507B.

AFO211/39 introduced Admiralty Patter 507A on 19th January 1939:
Quote:
Dark grey paint, Home Fleet shade, for other than weather work, is being added to the Authorised List as Pattern 507a. The formula is the same as for Pattern 507B except that the enamel is omitted.

2. The description of Pattern 507B has been amplified to read:- "Paint mixed dark grey, Home Fleet shade, for weather work"


Capital ships on Home Fleet station in Home Fleet Grey.

CB3016 extract memo on 18th December 1939 read:
Quote:
Sir,
With reference to your letter No.N.C.388/6801 of 8th November , 1939, I am commanded by My Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty to inform you that H.M. Ships on foreign stations are painted as follows (vide C.B.3016(37), paragraph 261), and C.B.3016 (34), paragraph 179):-

Cruisers and larger vessels - light grey all over
Destroyers - dark grey hulls and light grey upper works
Submarines - royal blue on Mediterranean Station, and a dark olive colour on China Station.

2. All ships of the Home Fleet, including submarines, are painted Home Fleet grey, and a matt surface paint is employed both at home and on foreign stations.


Home Fleet Temporary Memorandum 288 dated 20th August 1940 reinforces the evidence for use of Home Fleet grey with this:
Quote:
...
2. Capital ships and aircraft carriers of the Home Fleet when in Home Waters are to be painted Home Fleet Grey. Cruisers, at the discretion... blah blah etc etc



If a medium grey was in use on capital ships, the Admiralty were entirely unaware of it, and furthermore the fleets were in mass disobedience of the Admiralty.

The only reference to a medium grey existing in a formal capacity is within the context of CAFO 1112/42 (available to download from my website https://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk/pages/royal-navy-colours-of-world-war-two-c-a-f-o-1112-camouflage-of-sea-going-ships-june-1942) which permits a mix of 507A and 507C, named as Home Fleet grey and gave this specific context:
Quote:
V. EMERGENCY DESIGNS : CAMOUFLAGE WITHOUT PATTERN
21. In the following paragraphs instructions are given for painting a ship with a simple equivalent
of each class of design described in Section III above, using only White, Home Fleet Grey and
Mediterranean Grey.
These schemes of painting will be of about the same value for concealment as patterned designs,
but will produce less confusion. They are intended for use when there is no time to obtain or paint to a
pattered camouflage design.
Little experience has been gained with these emergency designs and the equivalent (a) of LIGHT
TONE designs should not be applied to ships larger than Destroyers, except for special operations, owing
to the increased visibility in sunlight.
(a) Equivalent of LIGHT TONE Designs. All weather work should be painted pure white except
for a band right round the ship, extending from the water-line half-way up to the forecastle
deck or half-way up to the upper deck in ships without a forecastle deck. This band should be
Light Grey Admiralty Pattern 507C and should cover the boot topping (vide C.A.F.O.
2515/41).
(b) Equivalent of LIGHT MEDIUM TONE Designs. – All weather work should be painted Light
Grey Admiralty Pattern 507C except for a band right round the ship, extending from the
water-line half-way up to the forecastle deck or half-way up to the upper deck in ships
without a forecastle deck. This band should be painted with a mixture of equal parts Light
Grey Admiralty Pattern 507C and Dark Grey Admiralty Pattern 507A
, and should cover the
boot topping (vide C.A.F.O. 2515/41).
(c) Equivalent of DARK MEDIUM TONE Designs. – All weather work should be painted with a
mixture of equal parts Light Grey Admiralty Pattern 507C and Dark Grey Admiralty Pattern
507A.
(d) Equivalent of DARK TONE Designs. – All upper works should be painted with a mixture of
equal parts Light Grey Admiralty Pattern 507C and Dark Grey Admiralty Pattern 507A.
The
hull should be painted all Dark Grey Admiralty Pattern 507A.
(e) In all Schemes of Painting the undersides of platforms and horizontal projections, blast
shields, etc. should be painted White. All parts of a ship which are permanently in shade or
shadow should also be painted White.

My bold above


I have seen not one shred of evidence that an all over medium grey scheme existed. Even the CAFO1112 emergency mix above was only to be used on part of the ship, not all over.

There was a little wriggle room on the exact tone of Home Fleet Grey, as described in here https://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk/pages/royal-navy-colours-of-world-war-two-pattern-507s-g10-and-g45.


The only challenge attempted on the above was on Steel Navy, where Alan Raven told me that Claude Muncaster had told him that 507B was a mix of 507A and 507C. Given that we know the Admiralty was publishing Rate Books and Fleet Orders which directly contradict that, we may explain that anomaly by speculating that Claude Muncaster was infact referring to the emergency mix paint - something that did happen during his tenure.


To repeat - if there ever was a Admiralty Pattern 507B Medium Grey during the run up to or during the Second World War, the Admiralty was unaware of it - because the Admiralty believed it was Dark Grey, Home Fleet shade - or simply Home Fleet Grey.

On a model it's immaterial as in real life the only visible difference was whether it had a glossy or a matt finish.

As posted previously on this site, this is our 13%RF version of Home Fleet Grey outdoors against a black pseudo boot-topping. That chip is one of six cut from a post card sprayed with the prototype shade I mixed, measured and iterated:

Image
Image

As evidenced, the dark grey looks right in context. They trouble everyone is probably having is getting their head around the fact that Snyder & Short's 507A and B are BOTH non-representative of Home Fleet Grey. The "507A Dark Grey" is too dark and the "507B Medium Grey" is too light. Neither of them is a good representation of Home Fleet Grey. As some can only apparently process a single variable at a time, upon hearing that 507B "Medium Grey" didn't exist they default to their present very dark impression of 507A then struggle to reconcile that with photographic evidence from the real ships.



So good to see these photos. Thank you.

Im VERY happy now with how my own Trumpeter 1941 1/700 Hood came out. That settles it for me.

I suggedt you build a Hood yourself and demonstrate the paints yiu sell in action. It is hard for people to figure out but if you have a ship painted in your paints it makes all the sense then.

_________________
- @Shipific on IG
my gallery


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