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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:46 pm 
Could someone point me in the direction of which colour coat colours are needed for HMS Rodneys camouflage scheme?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 10:14 pm 
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These are what I would use

RN 03 AP 507C Light Grey
RN 04 MS1
RN 05 MS2
RN 07 B5 Dark Blue-Grey
RN 01 AP 507A Dark Grey(for decks depending on year you are depicting Her in)

Hope that helps

John

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:14 am 
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That is essentially correct with the addition of MS3. The pattern was mostly retained throughout her service but the color distribution, although the same colors, was changed. also the decks were originally camo'd as well. Published sources vary somewhat, but white ensigns warship color chart has most of the info you'll need. www.whiteensignmodels.com/page/camouflage.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:27 am 
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well, that link doesn't work any more so you'll have to get hold of a published resource. Malcom Wright's "British and Commonwealth Warship Camouflage of WWII, vol 2" has designs for 1942 and 1943-44. His book has taken a lot of flak, but many of his schemes are correct, and Rodney agrees with most other published resources.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:54 am 
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Try this link..

https://www.whiteensignmodels.com/page/ ... KR5lH_oeUk


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:08 am 
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That link works, but Rodney is so well camouflaged I could not find it :wave_1:


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:50 am 
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Thanks for the help guys. The Wem page was the first place I checked but unfortunately there is no info there for rodney only nelson!

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:41 pm 
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Since we have the paint range, we're maintaining the reference page these days:

https://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk/pages/british-royal-navy-colour-schemes

HMS Rodney

1942

Admiralty Disruptive Pattern Camouflage, using the following colours:

MS.1 Dark Blue-Black (RN 04);

MS.2 Dark Grey (RN 05);

B5 Blue (RN 07);

507C Admiralty Light Grey (RN 03);

Boot topping - Black (C03);

Underwater hull - Antifouling Red (RN19)

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http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:18 pm 
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Is this the scheme that's depicted on the box work of the 1/200 kit as I'm slightly confused as to some of the colours. I can tell the ms1 and b5 but the also seems to be white and what I'm guessing is meant to be ms3.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:45 pm 
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507 C is a very light grey often mistaken as white. I have been told that white was not used on the RN capital ships during WWII.
HTH


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:52 pm 
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Hi,
I'm really glad to see the sovereign hobbies paint list for Rodney. (Unfortunately I can't access Colourcoats in Canada, which is a shame as it is some of the best paint I've ever used. I have a few older tins that I am rationing… from the old days when they could be sent by post).
At the moment I'm working on the Trumpeter Rodney and find that its paint scheme only vaguely resembles anything I've seen in the photos online and in Raven and Roberts' British Battleships.
Is it not the case that during the Bismarck chase, Rodney was all over 507B? I sure hope so, as I did try to do the camouflage, but I did a crap job :Mad_5: , so reverted to all over grey to represent it during the spring of 1941.

Cheers,
John


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 3:10 am 
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Hi John,

You're correct but we now know that 507A = 507B = G10 = Home Fleet Grey

Snyder & Short (and Colourcoats) 507A and G10 are fairly similar to each other and have a Light Reflectance Value of ~10%, so I am fairly confident that they are typical of the sort of variations one might expect in the mixing and application of Home Fleet Grey. I'm happy to accept that the 507B chips by Snyder & Short (and by extension Colourcoats) are accurately replicated from real samples obtained during their research, but there's clearly an anomaly somewhere along the line. Knowing how diligent John is/was, it seems likely the source of the anomaly lies in either the original identification of the samples sourced and used, or perhaps even that the sample itself was well out-of-spec when originally mixed ~80 years ago. That's also not to say that a ship or ships weren't actually painted with that shade of "507B", but it is clear that the colour commonly thought of today as 507B was not the Home Fleet Grey prescribed by the Admiralty.

There were 3 greys discussed throughout all Admiralty documents I've now seen for cruisers, battlecruisers and battleships :

1) 507B Home Fleet Grey -> replaced with 507A Home Fleet Grey to same shade with identical ingredients and proportions thereof, minus the enamel additive that immediately pre-war 507B had

2) 507C Light Grey / Foreign Stations Grey / Mediterranean Grey

3) Dark Grey deck paint (which I haven't read too much about so far, but for my own models I'll continue to use Home Fleet Grey)

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Sovereign Hobbies Ltd
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Current build:
HMS Imperial D09 1/350
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 5:18 am 
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however, there IS a medium color somewhere between [507a-507b-g10] and 507c and previously erroneously known as beeing 507b :

HMS hood when sunk was not painted in the dark [507a-507b-g10] color nor in 507c... so how shall we call this intermediate color now ? (also used in Warspite camo)

or precisely not ? shall I paint HMS Hood and Warspite with the darker shade (previously known as 507a) ??? and totally forget the medium shade ?

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 5:26 am 
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Especially this color (Reported to be AP507B), but it's not so dark... (yesyes, exposure and such applies)

Attachment:
Untitled.jpg


Attachment:
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 5:39 am 
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There's only that colour cine film (and all our family cine film from the 1960s, 1970s and early 80s looks heavily washed out despite only ever having been reeled a few times) and photos like this from the HMS Hood Association site:

Image

... which could suggest a shade lighter than Home Fleet Grey.

We do know there were emergency mixes of 50/50 discussed in official documents, but these were never given formal names or notation besides description as emergency mixes - i.e. certainly not 507B. I personally have seen nothing to suggest HMS Hood wouldn't have been Home Fleet Grey.

As part of a little research group with a few members of this forum, various potential 50/50 mixes have been made to try to arrive and something close to Colourcoats RN02 / what Raven, Snyder & Short notate as "AP507B" but whilst some get close to the reflectance factor, none get anywhere near the blue content.

Equally, the 507B and B5 chips on S&S which are extremely similar are nowhere near saturated enough to convince me/us that they are fresh B5, but they may potentially be very faded B5.

My own Hood (still a WIP) is painted in RN02, and whilst I now believe this is incorrect (and yes, I know I need to repaint the main top mast white instead of grey), it does resemble the colour cinefilm to a degree although I know that cinefilm tends to be a spectacularly bad medium for capturing colours. I'm not changing this model now, but if I build a 1/200 Hood in future, I will use Home Fleet Grey.
Image

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James Duff
Sovereign Hobbies Ltd
http://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk

Current build:
HMS Imperial D09 1/350
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 5:45 am 
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I have two frames from the same movie (or series of shots) you posted first, and one is very light and the other very dark; I'll post it later and it shows that you cannot say anything about the contrast.

I now started with the B5-ish mix very much close to the colour charts (AP507B), but indeed, it may be off completely and from what I read in the paint discussions a more neutral light gray may be correct. Oh well, the entire model perfect except the color :heh: Current color:

Image

Image

(Even my modern phone camera is inconsistent with the shade of blue...)


Last edited by EJFoeth on Thu Feb 16, 2017 5:55 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 5:50 am 
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We booked flights last night to visit the National Archives on Saturday to view their B5 and B6 samples in person. Based on much calculation and analysis (most of it on the part of other members of this forum) I myself did some further analysis earlier in the week and I think I have narrowed down B5 to a fairly narrow range, but I want to see the original (and likely age darkened - but it's the level of saturation I want to see - the reflectance of the original seems to be known nowadays so darkening with age can be reversed) before I shoot my bolt and look silly.

I'll send you a PM today if that's ok ... :cool_2:


Edit: As another thought, the close-up above looking past the funnels shows a glossiness which to me proves that the specific paint was indeed pattern 507B. Only 507B had the enamel content of any of the paint formulae I've encountered which could give the glossiness, and 507B is described in the Rate Books and various other documents as Home Fleet Grey. None of that however is proof that the paint recipes were followed religiously in practise ...

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James Duff
Sovereign Hobbies Ltd
http://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk

Current build:
HMS Imperial D09 1/350
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151


Last edited by SovereignHobbies on Thu Feb 16, 2017 5:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 5:53 am 
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Yes please :)


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:44 am 
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the dark 507a seems sooo dark when I look at my S&S chips.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 8:00 am 
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It is, I agree. We may be somewhere into the realms of "scale effect" which normally is a notion I reject. Painted over a large area and viewed outdoors on a clear day it's impression is less severe.

I think we also need to keep in mind that this was the home fleet, and so many people are used to seeing glamour shots of British ships on international tours in 507C, or of American ships at the end of the war in the Pacific.

The Home Fleet was based at Scapa Flow in the Orkney Isles. I'm from Shetland originally. It's dark there most of the time. The sea is such a deep, dark blue-black to look at on all but the brightest, bluest days, and normally it's overcast. Here's a photo of Fair Isle a little south of Sumburgh between Shetland and Orkney - keep in mind that this is a nice day!
Image

Most of the time in the northern isles it's cloudy and the sea is a very dark grey. In that context, the dark "507A" seems more in keeping with the environment.
Image

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James Duff
Sovereign Hobbies Ltd
http://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk

Current build:
HMS Imperial D09 1/350
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151


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