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PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 5:40 am 
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I am researching HMS Howe for a future build. Intention is to depict her some time after she emerged from refit in May 1944. Undecided as to exactly when? As far as I can gather from my references and from the IWM Website photos her paint schemes around this time were as follows:

Scheme One:
May 1944-Later 1944:

Admiralty Disruptive Camouflage Pattern.
As seen in the well known colour photos of her transiting the Suez Canal headed for the Far East.

Scheme Two:
Later 1944-Early 1945:

Admiralty Standard Scheme Type A (British Pacific Fleet Scheme).
But also having darker coloured main gun turret sides, presumably B20 Blue Grey colour same as the panel on the hull? Howe was the only one of the King George V class to have this variant as far as I can make out.

Scheme Three:
Early 1945-September 1945:

Medium or dark coloured entire hull (Unknown hull colour, possibly AP507A/507C grey mix? B20 Blue Grey less likely) with light grey superstructure.

Scheme Four:
September 1945-Sometime before December 15th 1945:

Reverted to Admiralty Standard Scheme Type A (British Pacific Fleet Scheme)
Only this time with light grey main gun turret sides and not darker main gun turret sides as before.
Also no counter-shading evident on the main gun turret barrels.
And polished main gun barrel muzzles as per peacetime.

Scheme Five:
Sometime before December 15th 1945-Sometime before February 1st 1947:

Reverted to medium or dark coloured entire hull (Unknown hull colour, seems most likely B20 Blue Grey, AP507A/507C grey mix less likely) with light grey superstructure.
Also no counter-shading evident on the main gun turret barrels.
And polished main and secondary gun barrel muzzles as per peacetime.

Scheme Six:
Sometime before February 1st 1947 - May 1948 (Commencement of Refit before going into reserve in April 1949):

Peacetime overall light grey scheme.

My question is about Scheme Three, the Early 1945-September 1945 scheme? And by extension Scheme Five, the medium to dark lower hull and light upperworks scheme she wore post-war and upon arrival back to the U.K. on January 9th 1946. H.M.S. King George V, Duke of York and Anson also wore similar schemes as seen returning to the U.K. from war service.

Was the hull G10 Grey? (Ex Home Fleet Dark Grey Shade AP507A/B)? Or was it something else again? Presumably the upperworks remained G45 (Ex Foreign Stations Light Grey 507C)?

(Edited again to reflect updated information and to revise timeline of paint schemes accordingly.)


Last edited by Mr. Church on Wed Jul 21, 2021 3:44 am, edited 9 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:13 am 
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There are several photos showing her wearing the hull panel of the Admiralty Standard Scheme Type A with some, or all, of the superstructure still in disruptive camouflage (eg https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/302409, or the heading photo at https://www.armouredcarriers.com/task-f ... ific-fleet). It may be that the dark-coloured main armament turret(s) are remnants of the Admiralty Disruptive Camouflage Pattern, yet to be painted out.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:27 am 
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I think it is a variant of the Admiralty Standard Type A Scheme. There are several ships sporting an Admiralty Standard Type A Scheme but with blue turrets visible in the Roland Smith Royal Navy at War DVD with Colour Footage of the Eastern Fleet taken when they were saluting the departing USS Saratoga:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g74ma4vxYDA&t=449s


The dark turret sides are seen on both port and starboard sides of H.M.S. Howe:
https://www.gettyimages.ie/detail/news-photo/howe-19-january-1945-fairfax-archives-picture-news-photo/540162285?adppopup=true
https://www.gettyimages.ie/detail/news-photo/howe-arrives-in-sydney-photo-taken-from-lady-macquaries-news-photo/1079709018


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:32 am 
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tjstoneman wrote:
There are several photos showing her wearing the hull panel of the Admiralty Standard Scheme Type A with some, or all, of the superstructure still in disruptive camouflage (eg https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/302409, or the heading photo at https://www.armouredcarriers.com/task-f ... ific-fleet). It may be that the dark-coloured main armament turret(s) are remnants of the Admiralty Disruptive Camouflage Pattern, yet to be painted out.


Thanks for the link by the way. That is a most interesting photo of H.M.S. Howe mid-repaint with an Admiralty Standard Type A Hull and an Admiralty Disruptive Camouflage superstructure.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2020 1:11 am 
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The (whole) hull was B20 and the upperworks G45 in the third scheme in your list.

(I have not checked the photo record for Howe, but for other ships that I have looked at this was a late 1945 - 1946 (ie postwar) scheme.)


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2020 6:30 am 
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Thanks Dick.

If the whole hull was B20 in the early 1945-End of War final scheme then that answers the question.

Based on these photos it seems H.M.S. Howe did indeed get this scheme in early 1945 and not post-war as per other ships:
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205160196
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205160195
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205160177

The photos are listed as being from New Zealand waters in January 1945. H.M.S. Howe refitted in Durban from June - September 1945 and discarded her single Oerlikons in favour of more Pom-Poms and Single 40mm Bofors Mounts. No single Bofors mounts evident in the photos so the listed dates appear to be correct.

They are interesting as they mean that her Admiralty Standard Type A Scheme was rather short lived.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2020 9:51 am 
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Amusingly photos of Howe arriving at Capetown mid September 1945 show her back in standard Scheme A! (This is of course after her June-September refit at Durban.)


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:05 am 
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Amusing indeed.

I had looked at MaritimeQuest before but did not appreciate the dates:
https://www.maritimequest.com/warship_directory/great_britain/battleships/howe/hms_howe_page_2.htm

Indeed she is in Standard Scheme A here and post Durban refit as you say. One can clearly see the two single 40mm Bofors Mounts atop 'A' Turret, so the dates appear correct. Only this time unlike before she has G45 Light Grey Main gun turret sides.

Will amend the top post again to reflect this. Thanks for that, the plot thickens. She really had a lot of paint schemes in a comparatively short time.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:19 am 
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Additional detail evident here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/WarshipPorn/comments/2fsb2i/strike_up_the_band_hms_howe_visits_cape_town_on/

Assuming the stated date is correct it seems H.M.S. Howe had no counter-shading on her main gun barrels and also had polished main gun barrel muzzles from September 1945 onwards.

That makes sense I suppose as the war was over by the time she emerged from refit at Durban in September 1945.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 2:04 am 
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I just found this clip of H.M.S. Anson in her late war / post war dark hull light grey superstructure colour scheme. Interestingly the dark hull looks more like G10 (Ex Home Fleet Dark Grey Shade AP507A/B) than B20. Though again, interpretation of old colour film can be deceptive and subject to all the usual caveats. Here is the clip nonetheless that may be of interest?

https://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675036524_Allied-forces-in-Japan_British-battleship-HMS-Anson-anchored-in-breakwater_Kobe-Harbor_World-War-II


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 8:54 am 
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Another addition to the story. I came across this clip on Youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qB84EM-jGpE

It is captioned 'New British Battleships (1946)'. The first five minutes look to be off-cuts of the well known newsreel footage of H.M.S. Howe and H.M.S. Anson being completed and commissioned in 1942.

The final part of it, from about the five minute mark on all show H.M.S. Howe. It is undoubtedly H.M.S. Howe as her name is legible on the aft superstructure and her unique 40mm Bofors AA Armament and enclosed aft funnel platform are clearly visible. She returned to Portsmouth on January 9th 1946 following war service. So I can only assume that this is the occasion being filmed? It looks to be a wet and miserable day (quite likely in Britain in January) yet there is a large crowd plus a film crew gathered to greet her. I don't know Portsmouth Dockyard well so can't be fully sure, but it seems quite likely?

What does it mean as regards her colour scheme? Well it is clearly evident as per below that she then had her entire hull painted in darker colour than the superstructure. So presumably she reverted again to the Hull B20, Upperworks G45 scheme sometime between September 1945 and January 1946?

Attachment:
HMS Howe possibly January 9th 1946 Portsmouth return from the war.jpg


Screenshot posted for discussion purposes and ease of viewing, copyright rests with original owner.

Fascinating how many repaints or rather camouflage changes Howe received in the comparatively short timeframe of May 1944 to January 1946. And some repetition of camouflage schemes thrown in as well.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 11:29 am 
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Thanks for the link - the Pathe clip does indeed show South Railway Jetty (previously known as Farewell Jetty) Portsmouth Dockyard. The railway shelter on the jetty is distinctive, as is Semaphore Tower, also visible in some shots.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 12:45 pm 
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Thanks tjstoneman. That's handy to know. The footage is virtually certain to be her return home from war service so.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2021 4:00 pm 
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dick wrote:
The (whole) hull was B20 and the upperworks G45 in the third scheme in your list.

(I have not checked the photo record for Howe, but for other ships that I have looked at this was a late 1945 - 1946 (ie postwar) scheme.)


Revisiting this in the light of my post on the Anson thread and the theoretical dates I have for the whole hull B20 scheme (26 Oct 1945 – 7 Mar 1946), B20 would appear a less likely option for your third scheme on Howe.

Also, if your fifth scheme was painted up on 9 Jan 1946 or later that would (according to Burt) be on/after Howe’s return to the UK which, given that the whole hull B20 scheme was an Australian area scheme, again may make B20 less likely. As with Anson, we really need to tie down exactly when and where Howe painted into this scheme and/or confirm if that Pathe film of Howe arriving at Portsmouth is her arriving home on 9th Jan 1946 (in that scheme).

(Maybe it’s the 50/50 507C/507A mix in your third scheme?)


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2021 3:20 am 
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Thanks again dick for keeping it under review as evidence emerges and things become clearer.

I have amended my initial post to add numbers to each of the colour schemes for future ease of reference. I didn’t anticipate Howe having so many different schemes in such a comparatively short timeframe when I first posted.

In relation to your points, please see below which may shed a little more light on things? I did some more searching and someone by the name of Laurie Martin has helpfully shared the diary of their father in law on the BBC War Stories website. The father in law had served aboard H.M.S. Howe at the time concerned and made diary entries upon arrival and departure from various ports. (As an aside wouldn’t it be great to find something similar relating to H.M.S. Anson?) Link here:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peopleswar/stories/26/a6888126.shtml

I have copied an extract as per below for ease of viewing and discussion:

Depart Freemantle 15-6-1945, Arrived Durban 27-6-1945
Depart Durban 10-9-1945, Arrived Simonstown 12-9-1945
Depart Simonstown 14-9-1945, Arrived Cape town 14-9-1945
Depart Cape town 20-9-1945, Arrived Mussel bay 21-9-1945
Depart Mussel bay 21-9-1945, Arrived East London 22-9-1945
Depart East London 22-9-1945, Arrived Killindini 28-9-1945
Depart Killindini 31-10-1945, Arrived Seychelles 3-11-1945
Depart Seychelles 6-11-1945, Arrived Addu attoll 9-11-1945
Depart Addu attoll 10-11-1945, Arrived Colombo 12-11-1945
Depart Colombo 14-11-1945, Arrived Trincomalee 15-11-1945
Depart Trincomalee 22-11-1945, Arrived Singapore 27-11-1945
Depart Singapore 1-12-1945, Arrived Seletar bay 1-12-1945
Depart Seletar bay 4-12-1945, Arrived Singapore 4-12-1945
Depart Singapore 7-12-1945, Arrived Colombo 12-12-1945
Depart Colombo 15-12-1945, Arrived Bombay 18-12-1945
Depart Bombay 19-12-1945, Arrived Aden 24-12-1945
Depart Aden 26-12-1945, Arrived Port Said 30-12-1945
Depart Port Said 1-1-1946, Arrived Portsmouth 9-1-1946


Now we know from previously mentioned photographic evidence that Howe sported the Admiralty Standard Type A Scheme (with single Bofors guns post-Durban refit of June - September 1945) when she arrived in Cape Town on September 14th 1945.

And we also know from the YouTube clip and screenshot I posted above that Howe had a medium or dark full hull with light upperworks as she was filmed arriving back in Portsmouth of a wet and miserable looking January 9th 1946.

So the question remains when and where was she repainted from Admiralty Standard Type A into the medium or dark hull and light upperworks? It could have been done anywhere from Cape Town in September 1945 to Port Said on New Year’s Day 1946? As I imagine it would be a day’s work or less if any substantial number of crew were assigned to repaint the hull? And she made a number of port calls of a duration of a day or more as she was enroute home to the U.K.

I watched Roland Smith’s DVD again and he has footage of her which he describes as being Trincomalee in August 1944. This can’t be so as closeup views clearly show Howe as having her single Bofors guns that she only received in Durban in June – September 1945. (A very minor point that in no way detracts from the overall usefulness of the DVDs. They are a fantastic resource and the late Mr. Smith and all involved deserve enormous praise for taking the time and trouble to put them all together and make them available to us all). She also clearly sports the medium to dark lower hull and light upperworks in the footage. So if it is indeed Trincomalee then it must have been filmed on her visit there enroute home to the U.K. which would be November 15th to November 22nd 1945 as per the diary entries above. So that might narrow it down just a little? Screenshots as per below for discussion purposes and ease of viewing:

Attachment:
HMS Howe Post September 1945 1R.jpg


Attachment:
HMS Howe Post September 1945 2R.JPG


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:52 am 
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Great stuff!

OK, that would all seem to further confirm that the Pathe film is Howe arriving home on 9th Jan 1946 in the light upperworks/darker hull scheme.

(Something else I noticed is that on Howe’s arrival at Capetown September 1945 there were two single 40mm on A turret. In the 9th Jan 1946 Pathe film these are gone. Nor can I see then on A Turret in the bit of Roland Smith film thought to be at Trincomalee late 1945.)

Before you posted R A Leonard’s diary I was wondering if, despite being fresh out of the Durban refit in Standard Scheme A, she repainted at Capetown to the light upperworks/darker hull scheme because she initially had orders for a return to the Pacific for postwar duties, but that then it was realised she was not needed and she was ordered home (some references give the impression that Howe went home from Capetown).

Given Leonard's diary it seems clear she was indeed heading East again and it can be interpreted that she got as far as Singapore before plans changed and being ordered home.

Leonard's diary makes sense of a photo of Howe departing Colombo that I have long puzzled over. I have seen it captioned as Howe departing for Australia in 1944 but as can just about be seen she is not in Standard Scheme A but in the light upperworks/darker hull type scheme, and is in her late 1945 fit. What is good about this photo is that there are other ships in frame and the tone of their paints can be compared with Howe’s. London is there in Standard Scheme A, and her hull panel looks a very similar tone to Howe’s hull; and that escort carrier is in something darker. This would suggest to me that Howe’s hull was B20 (or possibly 50/50 of course, but why?; and not 507A/G10) at this time which would either be 14 Nov 1945 or 15 Dec 1945. If we could tie down London’s movements we might be able to identify which. (It would be good if we could identify the CVE also!)
Attachment:
Howe 1945 11 14 or 1945 12 15 or dep Colombo.jpg


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Last edited by dick on Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:55 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 3:33 pm 
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Thanks dick. I wondered about that photo from Colombo myself.

As regards the Bofors guns on 'A' turret, they seem to have been very short-lived. Probably not surprising that they were removed as the war was over and they would likely have been difficult to access for maintenance during the long sea voyage back home to Britain.

Howe's final AA armament is another thing I'm trying to pin down. As it will vary for each of the colour schemes. According to R.A. Burt's book she received eight single 40mm Bofors in 1945. That seems too low a number based on the British Pathé footage from Portsmouth. Perhaps he meant to say eighteen and not eight? He also says it is not certain Howe received the Quadruple 40mm PomPoms on the quarterdeck. The British Pathé footage clearly shows she did indeed receive them.

Norman Friedman's British Battleships book says she received eighteen single 40mm Bofors in Durban in 1945. And he provides a plan view showing them. I think it is correct bar the positions of two of them adjacent to and slightly aft of 'B' Turret. Based on the British Pathé footage (and the photo from Colombo) there should be Quadruple 40mm PomPoms in this position. Therefore the Bofors should possibly be forward of the breakwater emanating from 'B' Turret barbette rather than aft of it? Friedman's plan has also omitted the quadruple 40mm PomPoms from the quarterdeck as well as those from opposite 'B' turret.

As far as I can make out, the eighteen single Bofors were placed as follows working from forward to aft:

Two aft of the forward breakwater, forward of the muzzles of 'A' Turret.
Two on 'A' Turret's roof, one on each side of and just forward of the protruding barrels of 'B' Turret.
Two forward of the aft breakwater, one on either side roughly opposite the gap between 'A' and 'B' Barbettes.
Two on the signal platform on the forward superstructure, one on either side.
Two on the aft funnel platform / emergency steering platform, one on either side.
Two right aft on the aft superstructure opposite the 14 inch main gun director, one on either side.
Five on the quarterdeck aft of the muzzles of 'Y' Turret, two on either side, final one mounted centrally on a cylindrical raised platform.
One right aft on the quarterdeck mounted centrally.

I found another photo of Howe in Cape Town in 1945 here:

http://allatsea.co.za/musings/past_pics/

Photo cropped and re-uploaded here for ease of viewing and discussion:

Attachment:
Howe 1945 Cape Town.jpg


Based on that, by the time Howe reached Portsmouth in January 1946 it seems four single Bofors had been removed, the two from 'A' Turret's roof and the two from the deck between 'A' and 'B' Barbettes.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 3:40 pm 
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According to Iain Ballantyne's history of HMS London she departed Colombo 14 October 1945 and arrived at Sheerness 3 weeks later, alongside at Chatham by 9th November. She then departed UK on a trooping trip to Colombo on 26 November 1945 so the photo of Howe departing Colombo must be 15th December 1945.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 4:02 pm 
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Thanks dick. That means Howe was repainted from Admiralty Standard Scheme A into her dark hull, light upperworks scheme sometime before December 15th 1945. Or from Scheme Four to Scheme Five as I have numbered them in the initial post. I'll amend it now to reflect this information.

Also I found this video showing H.M.S. Vanguard departing Britain with the Royal Family to South Africa in February 1947. As far as I can make out it is Duke of York and Anson to Vanguard's port side and Nelson and Howe to her starboard. Unfortunately there are only fleeting glimpses of the battleships. Some more searching might throw up a reel of offcuts that may reveal more? In any case all the battleships are in plain light grey overall, the dark hull light upperworks scheme is still present on destroyers though:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhbGXfNKohw

So it would appear Howe was painted back into plain overall light grey sometime before February 1st 1947 when this film was shot. The timeframe is outside of my initial query I know. But no harm to add the information to the initial post.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2021 6:18 am 
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Just to add to this, H.M.S. Howe's wood decks were holystoned and kept clean even in wartime. Details provided by the book: 'Sticky Blue! A Boy and a Battleship' written by Robin Rowe who served aboard her as a Royal Marine Boy Bugler.

He mentions that the decks were darkened in the shipyard but thereafter were 'assiduously scrubbed and holystoned by the crew every morning to obtain the nearest that could be to the whiteness of the piping days of peace, in total disregard for camouflage'. This was in European waters but towards the end of the book he still refers to the decks being scrubbed so it would appear the cleaning and scrubbing regime remained the same throughout the war.


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