The Ship Model Forum

Pictorial and archival records for the early years of the Imperial German Navy between 1871 and 1880 are rather patchy. While we know the general colour schemes of different types of vessels due to published orders in this respect, the hue of the yellow used to paint funnels, ventilators, mast etc. is not really documented for that period.

In those early, pre-William II, years the budding Imperial Navy often followed RN examples and until the mid-1870s many ships were ordered from British yards. Therefore, there is a certain possibility that also the yellow colour hue was copied from that used by the RN at that time.

My question is now, whether anyone knows about sources by which the hue of the yellow in the RN for the period 1870 to 1880 can be determined. These could be archival materials such as orders as to the composition of the paint used, perhaps paintings (though one has to consider artistic liberty), artefacts bearing traces of the respective paint, or models that are likely still carrying the original paint.

Any hints and tips in that direction are welcome.

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Eberhard

Former chairman Arbeitskreis historischer Schiffbau e.V. (German Association for Shipbuilding History)

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wefalck,

What follows is a slim lead that you may wish to follow up.

I have hazy recollections that a some time ago, information was broadcast into the public domain that the "yellow" that had been used in HMS VICTORY's colour scheme for some years had been changed to a different one owing to details having been found about the original specification for the colour used in the "Trafalgar livery" (1805). It is possible that this hue may have been in use during the period that you stated in your post. I therefore suggest that you contact Portsmouth Historic Dockyard for some possible further information.

The following may also be of assistance: it is known that the National Museum of the Royal Navy in Portsmouth has; or did have, in its possession, a Blohm und Voss model of SMS SCHARNHORST (1906) painted up in the Imperial colour scheme (gold/yellow and white) that may be of use. However, it is some years since I saw it and I had the impression then that the colours were somewhat faded.

Thank you very much for pointing me to that model of SMS SCHARNHORST in Portmouth. While this probably would not be useful for my prupose, as the yellow seems to have changed over time, it is a good hint, because I have been compiling for several years a list of extant builders' models of ships of the Imperial German Navy bevore 1918.

I have to follow this up. So far I have not been able to locate an image on the WWW.

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Eberhard

Former chairman Arbeitskreis historischer Schiffbau e.V. (German Association for Shipbuilding History)

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I took colour measurements from HMS Victory when I was last there but didn't initially respond here as we're 6-7 decades out in time span, but I'd hazard a guess that if one wanted a yellow paint that actually covered fairly well and could be made in quantity without bankrupting the country, the pigment type I'd choose would be ochre rather than the brighter chromium derived yellows. That tallies fairly well with what's on HMS Victory now, although it has a reddish caste. Then again, ochres are available in a range of hues.

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James Duff
Sovereign Hobbies Ltd
http://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk

Current build:
HMS Imperial D09 1/350
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151

Thanks for the information. That 'ochre' looks rather murky, much like the one used later by the French.

Chrome-yellow (lead chromate) was produced industrially in France from 1818 on I understand, but I don't know, whether it would have been cheap enough to be used for painting ships. Yellow ochre definitely was a lot cheaper. One cannot rule out that mixtures of pigments were used. Looking at ships paintings from later decades of the 19th centuries, the yellow is sometime represented much brigher, pointing to another pigment then ochre.

For the period in question, I think ochre would have been the main pigment used. Looking at the colour sample above, mixing this with more white would result in a beige, that can be seen on some contemporary paintings.

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Eberhard

Former chairman Arbeitskreis historischer Schiffbau e.V. (German Association for Shipbuilding History)

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wefalck,

A final thought on this matter.

You might also consider approaching those who manage HMS WARRIOR (1860) with your question. Notwithstanding the time difference between HMS VICTORY in her Trafalgar livery, HMS WARRIOR and the decade that you are specifically interested in, it is probable that the Admiralty had a rather conservative outlook when it came to specifying the hue of any paint to be used for the ships of the time and within the constraints of batch and whoever the mixer was, only made major changes when obliged to.

While Sovereign Hobbies uses the term "ochre" to describe the colour in question, most descriptions that I have read on that used in the Victorian livery, describe it as "buff." Whatever, I am no colourist.

I hope that you find the answer.

HMS Victory today:

"The resulting colour has been something of a surprise – we actually expected the colour to be a creamy hue, what we have found is that Victory was painted in bands of graphite grey and a colour that ranges from a creamy-orange to almost salmon pink in certain lights....”

https://www.hms-victory.com/restoration ... ar-colours

Names of colours are a story in itself. 'Buff' derives from a term for a particular kind of leather (tanned with fatty acids) that was used in recent years to wipe windows and cars, or polishing (hence 'buffing'). The word itself derives from 'buffalo', although originally mainly deer-hides, particularly alpine deer was used. In French these deer are 'chamois', hence the leather and the colour is called chamois. The colour typically is pale yellow when dry, but changes to a murky yellow when wet. Incidentally, parts of my family was in producing such leathers and goods from it, before the South Asian competition forced them to give up in the early 1960s. Apart from leathers for window cleaning and polishing, it was also used for liners in helmets and leather garmaments - wasn't there a group of cavalry under Cromwell called 'Buffs' because they wore these undyed leather garmaments under their armour ?

Ochre in turn refers to the nature of the pigment, which is a complex ferric oxyhydroxide mineral, or rather group of minerals. The colour depends inter alia on the amount of crystal water in the minerals.

I was aware of the rather surprising finds on VICTORY. However, we are probably framed by the aesthetics of later decades, for the contemporaries this colour-scheme may not have been so unusual. Or, it was unusual on purpose.

Talking to the Portsmouth people was also on my agenda.

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Eberhard

Former chairman Arbeitskreis historischer Schiffbau e.V. (German Association for Shipbuilding History)

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I looked through my pictures of HMS GANNETT (1878) in order to get an idea what colour they may have used during the restoration:


Freshly painted spar of HMS GANNETT in 2011

Reading the RGB values on my screen - which is a rather approximative and haphazard procedure, of course, I think it might be BS358 'Light Buff' (https://www.britishstandardcolour.com/)


Image from: https://www.ecfibreglasssupplies.co.uk/product/polyester-gel-coat-bs-358-sb-3961-light-buff

Question: does anyone have a suggestion for an airbrush-ready paint (Vallejo would be my preference) that comes close to it ? The colour charts published by the different manufacturers seem to be sometimes far off from what is in the bottle.

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Eberhard

Former chairman Arbeitskreis historischer Schiffbau e.V. (German Association for Shipbuilding History)

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