The Ship Model Forum

I wouldn't trust even colour footage for accurate tone - the attached photo shows three Norwegian ships, all painted in identical greys but clearly showing up differently despite being in the same shot. The angle to the sun plays such a massive role in how colours turn out in images:




And just to show you they are in fact the same paint, taken a few moments later:

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De quoi s'agit-il?

Having watched that colour film and viewed the photographs my instinct was that the film could just as easily be showing my 5-D as 5-N or even 5-S.

The Pearl Harbor battleship colours is something I haven't personally been all that much invested so whilst I've kept abrest of all the pertinent points of the debate, I myself do not hold an opinion on it besides that hitting that particular date snapshot is more contentious than, for example, aiming for a month or so before.

I've certainly seen a lot of photographs and footage of Royal Navy warships though and am quite certain that cinefilm and even period colour photographs are at best indicative but never instructive of hue. If they show a bluish hue one can be reasonably confident that we're not seeing a greenish grey. In this case however, we're debating which shade of low-saturation ultramarine tinted bluish grey we're seeing. For me that footage doesn't make a compelling case for any of the proposed paints.

If forced, I'd say it looks to me more like 5-D or perhaps 5-N than what I understand 5-S to look like, but given what I've read in the survivor accounts about how translucent the blue paint was and how poorly it covered the dark grey on Arizona, that is a worthless opinion which proves nothing.

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James Duff
Sovereign Hobbies Ltd
http://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk

Current build:
HMS Imperial D09 1/350
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151

Truely not evidence, only opinions!
Thank you!
John

Here is USS California sitting on the bottom. Notice how much in just a couple of months the sea water destroyed her paint job at and below the water line.

Well, the California was in 5-D Dark Grey before the attack, but of course we know from records that the entire battle line was in 5-D at one point in time...

Every verified color shot I've seen 5-D Dark Grey presents as black or very blackish grey, ANY of the blues I've seen in similar shots present as blue in all light conditions/angles...

All discussion of the Battlelines colors at Pearl are pure speculation as far as the blues go. we do know that the only authorized blue was 5-S Sea Blue at the time of the attack and we know that some units had repainted in it before the attack.. Use of 5-N didn't come about in the Pacific Fleet battle line until after the attack when they ditched 5-S for consistency fleetwide on paint formulations.....

I've had too many professionals (people that directly make their living in photography) tell me that trying to decide what the difference is between two different blues in film taken on different days with different light conditions with different cameras and films is impossible....

5-D was a grey based paint, Black tinted paint we know this, it will not photograph as blue... it will photograph on color film as grey to black...
5-S & 5-N were white based, purple blue tinted paint, we also know this, and it will not photograph on color film as grey to black.... It will present as blue....

I've seen 5-S photos that appear dark much darker than the color chips say they should...
I"ve seen 5-N photos appear much much lighter than their color chips present them to be...

Everyone is going to have their own opinions on what colors the ships were at Pearl,

All we have to go on is the few color photos in the archive and the Ford films of the salvage....

Jeff's photo show the california in 5-D just after the attack I have seen others similar, The two videos posted that show her leaving drydock (I believe May of '42) in what the orders say must be 5-N Navy blue.... But she presents as much lighter than the color chips say 5-N should be....

A very good example of how we will never know for sure without orders in hand stating what color was what with the when and how spelled out...
And that is not the way things were done in the peacetime navy..... The commanders of the two fleets Atlantic and Pacific Fleets could pretty much have their ships painted anyway they wanted as long as BOS agreed.... Type & Section commanders and ships captains, also had their right to chose as long as they stayed within the guidelines the Admiral in charge laid down and reported back what they chose...

We are never going to know EXACTLY what any of these ships were the day of the attack and all we have to go on is how they present in the color footage of the day... Analyzing the film is a pointless endeavor that only causes pain and bad feelings... Most experts I've talked with say go with what the film shows and the document evidence you have in hand and not worry so much about the particular shade of color you see in the photo... If the film says the ship was blue, it was blue, if the film says black go with black....

Shades are the artists part of this... Before the attack, no 5-N in the Pacific fleet, (very little in the Atlantic fleet either) the orders going directly to 5-N came after the attack...

So for colors of the battle line we have the almost black of 5-D, or the supposedly bright sea blue of 5-S......

We have good film evidence of Nevada and California, (and documented evidence of Oklahoma) in 5-D.... we have good film evidence of the Arizona, West Virginia, Tennessee and Maryland in blue. (IN MY HUMBLE OPINION)

They were all in Measure 1 given the 5-L tops, (Ms. 11 was exactly the same as Ms. 1 except for the colors being different) and there is no evidence that was changed. Basically they simply repainted the parts that were in 5-D to 5-S maintaining the 5-L tops)

But of course we are not arguing, just looking for the best evidence we can find....

I agree, paint your models in how YOU feel how they should be given the evidence.....

Here is a look at her port crane and her stacks.




Starboard side view

You know Jeff I understand the issues with photography and where some come to the conclusion that 5-D can present as blue... Like your pics here from shutterstock... (I just don't understand why they are darkened so much, it must be a shutterstock thing)

The Ford film shot shows her in Dark Grey the other two show her as a patchwork of dark greys and dark purple blues... Evidently both from the roughly same time period... (where they are building the wooden casemate to extend her hull up above the waterline to pump her out)

It's pictures like these that cause the confusion and arguments and no one has a good explanation for the change in colors...

All of the screen shots of California from the Ford movies present as dark grey.... and then we have these shots that seem to say the opposite......

I don't know what to tell ya... they were in the middle of the process of repainting the battle line, some were painted some were not..... I tend to believe the Ford footage more than the others cause it just appears more natural and we know what the equipment was, these other shots people keep throwing up in the argument we do not know what the equipment was...

So although I do not completely disregard them I do give them less weight than the Ford movie captures... they are also why I will always state that what I'm saying is my opinions only and that others are free to interpret the evidence any way they wish to...

Either way, no one can claim with absolute certainty that the ships were one way or the other, there are way too many unanswered questions......

Most of the color shots I see of 5-D appears black to mottled faded dark grey..... and as you point out there are a few that show as purple blue....

And I doubt that we will ever find out the absolute reason why....

EG







Ps...

All I did was download them from source and lighten them 10% there is no doubt that on some occasions and under certain conditions that old worn 5-D could appear very bluish....
And, I am of the opinion that color shift over time cannot account for this great a color change, it has to be something else.... We know the ship was in 5-D.....

This is probably the best version of this shot I've seen so far.

And that is a picture that adds to the confusion... (comes from this video on you tube, https://youtu.be/2DheObdHhnU, at about 1:20 in. The pic has been brightened a bit from the video) Under bright sunlight one could come to the conclusion that she was painted in Measure 11... (especially the very greyish looking fighting tops say 5-H haze grey where 5-L would be almost whiteish in appearance)

We know the tugs were in 5-D but that also tints bluish in this picture under the bright sunlight... We also know that the 5-D that was painted on the pacific fleet ships was not true 5-D formulation but the substitute 5-D made up from prewar #5 Navy Grey stocks blackened with pigment... (according to Tracy and I believe his research)

Is it possible that the pigment used to blacken #5 Navy Grey was bluish purple/black based? that would explain why under bright direct light it would hint towards blue and under normal ambient light it shows up as dark grey/blacks?

But that still doesn't explain the haze grey looking tops....

The paint on the Nevada wasn't as fire damaged as the other ships of the fleet, so smoke damage doesn't account for it as well as the greyish coloration appears very even and not splotchy as smoke damage would appear... And then the turrets show as weathered grey....

Beats me....

I still believe the Nevada was in Ms. 1, 5-D.... (the superstructure is way too dark for 5-S Sea Blue under bright sunlight and 5-N Navy Blue wasn't even in the conversation when she was last painted)

But this pic does bring up some questions.....

Those two videos would be 5-N Navy Blue in bright sunlight... Those were the direct orders in hand for the Pacific Fleet early '42.... (5-S had been "orphaned" by that point)

I haven't been a member of this sight very long but see the same problem here I have seen on others. That is concerning color. So far it seems that all anyone is concerned with is the color or Arizona at Peral Harbor. A question that will never be settled. Have seen the same thing in armor groups concerning olive drab, and in figure groups with different colors. The thing is the time of day the angle of the sun and cloud cover affect color. I have pic of reenactors wearing the same uniform at different times in different whether conditions and the colors look different. It seems that you have many members that are only interested in this one question and nothing else. They surely don't seem to be interested in details of the ship itself. I draw this conclusion from the fact I asked a question about a major detail back on page 119 and have yet to get a response. Being 73 and fighting the big C, I don't have all the time in the world to wait on a bunch of kids as I see them to finish fighting over a question that can not be answered. Color is relevant to the viewer and conditions. The way I see it paint your ship as you see it and then argue with who ever says you wrong one on one. Hope I have not offended to many.

Coincidentally, I think this pic happens to illustrate how the angle of light can change the appearance of a color. All these turrets were painted in modified 5-D (I subscribe to the notion that the modified 5-D had a tinge of blue to it) at the same time. All, save the turret at upper right, have their blast bags painted black. There's a fair amount of variation between the turrets, particularly on the right. The turret in the lower right corner comes closest to the actual appearance of the paint, which is actually darker.

It absolutely does. For this reason measurement of it requires temperature of the light source and all relative angles between source, subject and observer to be known and fixed. (and I'm practical terms set at values accepted by science to give consistent and repeatable results)

_________________
James Duff
Sovereign Hobbies Ltd
http://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk

Current build:
HMS Imperial D09 1/350
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151

Interesting movies :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0I6phmb9Z4


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0mTql52co0

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Pascal

•Battleship Bretagne 3D: https://vu.fr/FvCY
•SS Delphine 3D: https://vu.fr/NeuO
•SS Nomadic 3D: https://vu.fr/tAyL
•USS Nokomis 3D: https://vu.fr/kntC
•USS Pamanset 3D: https://vu.fr/jXGQ

You haven't offended anyone, in fact this is what this thread was created to express, opinions on what the ships at PHNY were painted on that fateful day... better to have a place to actually have this discussion for those who want to discuss it rather than stuff it..... It's a discussion that has gone on for a long time and will for a time longer... But despite all the angst I think most have accepted the idea that the battle line at PHNY was in the process of repainting their 5-N Dark Grey with 5-S Sea Blue..... (just looking at the colors most Arizona models are painted on nowadays)

The evidence in hand although not smoking gun absolute beyond any reasonable doubt, is still standing up as heavy preponderance of evidence saying they were, with no real evidence contradicting the factual evidence that has been unearthed, but there is a lot of opinions on both sides...

But when you get period color movies of the Nevada which we know was in 5-D showing up tinted blue, one has to wonder why....

The debate, much quieter than in the past, will go on... it's better to have a secure place to discuss it.....

EG

Hi Pascal,

The footage in both of these films was taken on March 15, 1942 as Nevada was leaving drydock #2 after getting repairs to her hull. There were two cameras filming that day. The first camera was dockside right at drydock #2. That is the Victory films footage you have here. The second camera was placed at the top edge of drydock #1. Here is a comparison of the same moments captured by both cameras.

And to me, the upper film looks a lot more natural that the second one... almost like the second one was taken thru a blue filter of some sort.... it's heavily blue shifted.... And the second film has been stretched out to 16/9 fake hi-res framing which accentuates the blue color........

No doubt the camera dockside at drydock #2 captured her colors more accurately. Here is a part of that footage that shows us all we need to know. Here is a freshly painted red hull, a freshly painted black boot top which was given a straight line at the top with a thin line of 5S or 5N blue paint over the old 5D paint.

Yep those pics look good, fresh Norfolk anti-fouling red, fresh black boot topping covering the joint between the antifouling red and what would have to be fresh 5-N Navy Blue as that is what was directly ordered for all Pac Fleet ships December 16th 1941.....

So take a look at that fresh 5-N Navy Blue and compare it to the almost Black 5-D on the tug, or even better yet the upper superstructure that is a great deal darker than the strip of 5-N above the boot topping...

I still say the Nevada was in Ms. 1, 5-D Dark Grey.... Your pic composition Jeff, in my opinion, only serves to reinforce that opinion...

EG

Here is some of the footage discussed above directly from the archives.

https://catalog.archives.gov/id/2663240

And here is the Nevada footage showing that thin blue line at the top of the boot topping very well.

https://catalog.archives.gov/id/2663400

California footage:
https://catalog.archives.gov/id/2663234

West Virginia footage:
https://catalog.archives.gov/id/2663255