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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2021 12:11 am 
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Is there a timeline showing which FS595 gray was used and when from 1956?

I ask as FS595 had two Haze Grays, 26270 and 36270. 26270 was last indicated in 595 as “Interior Haze Gray”. The two colours have different RGB and LRV values.

26270 at 137,143, 145 with an LRV of 27.01%

36270 at 132, 143, 140 and an LRV of 24.69%.

I always thought that the USN used 36270 until I read the attached 1997 order stating 26270 was to be used.

From 2017, when AMS Standards were introduced, 36270 has been 133, 138, 141 and an LRV of 25.09%

I doubt if the naked eye can differentiate between the AMS and FS 36270 but why change it?

Did the USN alternate between the two colours or did they switch from a semi gloss to a matt finish at some time?


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2021 1:02 am 
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It's my understanding that the real life paint was the "2" version (semi-gloss) but for modeling purposes, we use the "3" (matt/flat) version for greater realism.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2021 5:24 am 
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You'll notice that the section you highlighted refers to PCM tiles and latex paint. If you look closely at newer pics of the Ticonderoga class, you will notice that a lot of the topside surface areas are covered in thin rectangular tiles a little over a foot or two in area. These are radar absorbent. I would imagine that enamel paints aren't compatible with them, but details are most likely restricted information, or at least hard to find.

One other thing, gloss paints stand up to the elements better, which is a big reason why they are used.
the gloss finish might degrade the radar absorbency of the tiles, forcing them to use the matte finish.

Same goes for the change in values, they are constantly adjusting paint to find the best combination of properties to reduce radar and heat signatures. There was a program a few years ago testing epoxy paints that significantly increased the lifespan between coatings. I'm not sure of the current status, but I do know it wasn't easy to do touch ups at sea due to the special application techniques.

Another issue they had was the Gray paint faded to a pink Color after some changes were made to ingredients, probably for environmental purposes. I'm not sure they fully solved this issue as I still see pink tones in ships returning from deployment.

So there are many reasons that values change, but they always try and keep the base Color the same.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2021 1:10 pm 
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The latest and greatest (for me 17 years ago) was no-paint PCM 26270 colored tiles with 27270 colored caulk between them. Some production lots had color fading and changing effects you describe. We really had a hard time getting COs to NOT paint their tiles. The tiles were made to a standard 26270 color and the ships were told to leave them alone. But if they really insisted then to use 26270 latex paint.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2021 2:53 am 
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Interestingly , I have just spent a few hours trundling through various parts of the USN 's website but nowhere is the colour code used mentioned although one search did bring up the USCG's colours! One just said Haze Gray and mentioned 595 but no colour code number.

There must be orders issued somewhere like the 1997 one I found. Is there a federal body which would lay down colours or quote them in its files or a separate procurement body who organises them?

The RN has Defence Standards which lay down each colour, where it is to be used and the manufacturer's name. Does the USN have the same?

Scale effect might look OK on 1/700 etc. models but, on a 1/72 scale 7 foot RC Arleigh Burke, we prefer to use the real colour.

USN standard colours aren't available here but, with some help from the manufacturers' call centres, colours with very close RGBs to the FS colours can be found.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2021 12:44 pm 
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NAVSEA S6360-AG-MAN-010 Camouflage Manual for Surface Ship Concealment is the document you are looking for. Unfortunately, I have never found a copy for reference.

You may be able to find these online.

NAVAL SHIPS’ TECHNICAL MANUAL, CHAPTER 631, PRESERVATION OF SHIPS IN SERVICE - GENERAL - S9086-VD-STM-010

Naval Ships' Technical Manual Chapter 634, USN Deck Coatings S9086-VG-STM-010

I don't know why the current Federal Standard lists 26270 as Interior Haze Gray, maybe that's always been it's name, but I do know that semi gloss is what is used on outside ship surfaces. I have never seen a Matte finish on a modern USN ship. I also don't recall ever seeing the name of a FS Paint changing just because it's a gloss, semi-gloss or Matte.

Here are some examples of tiles and pink fading issues I referred to previously.

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2021 8:04 pm 
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Regarding Federal Standard 595C, it no longer exists. FS has been replaced by SAE Standards.

"FED-STD-595C, dated 16 January 2008, and all associated slash sheets, are hereby canceled. SAE AMS-STD-595, “Colors Used in Government Procurement,” supersedes FED-STD-595C"

http://www.gsa.gov/colorstd

Any official documents can be purchased directly from SAE.
SAE International Customer Service
400 Commonwealth Drive
Warrendale PA 15096
http://www.sae.org
CustomerService@sae.org

Current Color list: http://www.federalstandardcolor.com/ (You will notice that the current name given to 26270 and 36270 is 'Medium Gray'

If you want to look at the old specs, 595C or B, you can download them here, http://everyspec.com/FED-STD/FED-STD-595C_5533/

I thought the RAN recently changed to USN Haze Gray on it's ships? You should be able to get some in OZ somewhere. Maybe Russ French can locate some for you?

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2021 9:26 pm 
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Interesting, pics, Darren.
Saw several of that kind of CG problem 18/19 years ago but they may have resolved the colorfast issue on the tiles by now. Is that a DDG with the pink mast? Don't think there was ever PCMS tiles installed on the hull of an LHA/LHD so not clear on what that shows.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2021 9:55 pm 
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Thanks, I did manage to find a few of them online after bouncing in and out of websites wanting me to register before doing anything else.

Fascinating photos.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2021 12:01 am 
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MrTsquare wrote:
Interesting, pics, Darren.
Saw several of that kind of CG problem 18/19 years ago but they may have resolved the colorfast issue on the tiles by now. Is that a DDG with the pink mast? Don't think there was ever PCMS tiles installed on the hull of an LHA/LHD so not clear on what that shows.
T2


Yes, that's a DDG. The LHD island is fading to pink, but you can see a couple areas that have been repainted and are still Gray. It's the paint that's faded to pink, not the tiles. No tiles on DDGs or flat tops that I've ever seen. The tiles look slimmer and smoother to me than the original ones, but that just might be my memory acting up. I also note that almost every vertical surface on the CG has tiles now, including doors, CIWS, hangar doors, king post, mast, etc. must have taken a long time to install!!
I suspect the darker patches in the pics is paint, but don't know why they'd only paint such small areas.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2021 4:08 am 
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Thanks Darren, I use these sites mainly for my paint data. They are very handy for matching and checking various colours. In fact, one commercial paint company has a colour close to 26270 at RGB 137, 145, 145.

https://www.e-paint.co.uk/ams-standard- ... -chart.asp
https://www.colorhexa.com/769094

So the answer is that the USN has always been using 26270. 36270 seems to be used for model making scale effect.

BTW, Russ can't help with Haze Gray.

Australian & English Standards are the only ones known to the commercial paint industry here. Akzonobel etc. do not produce or import any 595 colors, FS or otherwise. They do make the new colour called RAN Haze Grey which is made to the colour of 26270 (RGB 137, 143, 145) but is matt. They use a different type of pigment to get the colours which gives some slight matamerisum differences under certain lights.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2021 9:12 am 
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A lot of the 1/96 scale modellers in the U.S. Use light ghost Gray in place of haze Gray. I spent a lot of time looking for a match for my own ships, and even though I found a really close primer, I'm not sure that it's the best idea. It looks too dark when on the water. I think the problem is that's it rare to see freshly painted ships and the paint starts to fade so quickly after being applied that the light ghost Gray actually comes closer to the normal appearance usually seen.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:25 am 
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Light Ghost Gray is flagged on the internet as 36375 which comes up on 595 as Medium Gray. I assume it is the same colour.

Much lighter than Haze Gray but strangely, the RN's Light Weatherwork Grey is a similar colour to this.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 11:22 am 
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FWIW, I was looking for a cheaper, easier alternative to hobby paints and I found auto primers actually stand up pretty well for RC ship usage. Here's my colour comparison.

Image
Image

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:18 pm 
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508medway wrote:
Australian & English Standards are the only ones known to the commercial paint industry here. Akzonobel etc. do not produce or import any 595 colors, FS or otherwise. They do make the new colour called RAN Haze Grey which is made to the colour of 26270 (RGB 137, 143, 145) but is matt. They use a different type of pigment to get the colours which gives some slight matamerisum differences under certain lights.


I know how challenging it can be to find people in the paint business that know what they're talking about. Most focus on their own segment of the market and know nothing about the rest.

However, many countries use the US Federal Standard system to some degree and I find it hard to believe there isn't a supplier in OZ that can mix a FS paint colour. If RAN Haze Grey is 26270, then it is semi-gloss and is made in Australia. They aren't going to change the system or import it from the US.
If you're going to worry about Metamerism, you might as well just order some paint from the USN. Nobody else is going to be able to reproduce the exact formula with the exact pigments and other components that provide the reflective, heat and radar properties of the paint. Or steal a can from a visiting ship on your next tour!

Try paint suppliers near the Navy yards, you might get lucky. I once found a can of original RCN grey paint at a warehouse near Toronto. At one naval review I attended, I took empty Baby food bottles and raided the paint lockers of visiting ships! Italian, Japanese, French etc.

But to be completely honest, I think you're on a fools errand. I was so focused on getting the exact paint that I bought the can of RCN grey, but I've never used it!! I still use hobby paint or cheap spray cans because in the end, close enough is close enough. What you see on the pond changes as the sun goes over and clouds roll by and water colour changes. Knowing it's perfect doesn't make up for all the time wasted getting it perfect. RC ships are for sailing! Just my opinion.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2021 5:18 am 
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Darren,
Actually, the commercial paint companies are very helpful this end and have emailed me their paint lists on an excel spreadsheet which, once sorted into RGB, makes it very easy to find a match assuming there is a close one.

Neither US Federal nor RAL colours are made by our commercial paint companies, only British & Australian Standard colours. No real call for them as nobody uses them. We can get RAL colours in car paint spray if we want as German car companies colours quite often are/were a RAL colour especially the 1970s cars where grey was popular. I discovered the current German Weather work colour was used on an Audi, so easy to get. “Normal” enamel RAL coloured paint in a can we can’t get.

We only have one marine paint manufacturer. The paint used on RAN ships is made here by AkzoNobel and it is made to the colour of 26270 but is matt. I have a contact in there and what I said about the paint is a straight lift from one of his emails. That is why it is known as RAN Haze Grey, a different finish using a different type of pigment. AkzoNobel also supply the RNZN.

I’d never heard of Metamerism until it got quoted to me in one of his emails along with a couple of nice pdfs showing some examples. Can’t seem to post pdfs to this forum though.

If you want French or Italian, I have the colours for them. AkzoNobel happen to paint the Pacific based French warships in Brisbane's dry dock. The French use their own standard which nobody seems to know much about. So, the French ships, much to their dismay, are painted in the nearest British BS381C colour which matches their standard.

Sorry, we are going to have to disagree on the close enough is close enough. I figure if you are going to make the model as accurate as possible, why not paint it in the right colours if you know them?

I hope you aren’t related to Mal from Adelaide. :smallsmile:

It is rather nice at a Regatta or normal run to see the various ships of the RN or whatever navy in the same colours. We tend to pass the can around or dole out paint to whoever wants it. A litre or two of paint goes a long way. The 3 ships in the photo attached used the same can and are the same colour despite appearances as you said, the varying light changes the look of the colours as does the angle. So far 2 others have used that can.

Anyway, the answer to my question has been resolved 595 26270. This has been fun and educational

Michael


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2021 6:34 am 
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Hi Michael,

Thanks for the detailed response.

I didn't think I would change your mind, I applaud your persistence.

To be clear, if RAN Haze Gray is 26270, and it is matte, then it isn't 26270. It is 36270. That's just how the system is defined. It's either mislabelled, or a mistake has been made somewhere.

I didn't expect FS paints to be made in OZ. Any decent paint store should be able to look up the formula for an FS paint and mix it into a can of base colour. If they can't look it up, then a sample should be able to be colour matched.

A distinction needs to be made between the federal standard system and the paint properties.
FS defines the colour. The properties (IR, radar, heat etc) are a completely different ball of wax and are restricted information by the USN. Whatever ingredients are used to achieve the desired properties will affect the metamerism and reflectance and fading and anything else that makes a paint look different under various conditions.

Good luck!
Darren

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2021 9:09 pm 
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Hi Darren,

FS595 is what is causing problems here as RAN Haze Grey is RAN Haze Gray. It is neither 26270 nor 36270. It is a paint made here to the colour of 26270 but it is a matt finish. I found this out the hard way by calling the paint 36270 and being told no by the paint manufacturers.

From what I can see, since FS595 appeared, there have been 3 colours called Haze Gray but they are different colours. 26270 is low sheen/semi gloss whereas 36270 is Matt.

26270 has always had the RGB of 137, 143, 145 and an LRV of 27.01%. For some reason I cannot fathom, although the USN external paint, it has at times been called Interior Haze Gray

36270 was an RGB of 132, 137, 140 and an LRV of 24.69% until February 2017. AMS 595 is an RGB of 133, 138, 141 and an LRV of 25.09%. A slightly different colour to 595 36270.

I always thought 36270 was simply a matt version of 26270 but, given the different RGB, this doesn’t seem to be the case.

Michael


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2021 8:51 am 
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I don't know if they'll ship to Australia, but there are lots of suppliers online. Here are a few.

https://www.milspeccoating.com/MIL-DTL- ... 1-f151.htm
https://tempo-aerospace.com/colour-guid ... 595-26270/
https://www.myperfectcolor.com/paint/68 ... 595c-26270

Or you can mix your own! Or see exactly how the formula has changed between 1986 and 1999.

http://everyspec.com/MIL-SPECS/MIL-SPEC ... 008512.PDF
http://everyspec.com/MIL-SPECS/MIL-SPEC ... 026311.pdf

Something else I wanted to mention,
Color reference media information changed when AMS-STD-595 replaced FED-STD-595 in 2015.
FED-STD-595 used tristimulus color values
AMS-STD-595 uses CIE L*a*b* color values
This adds a level of difficulty when comparing old specs to new ones as you are relying on conversions rather than listed numbers.

The RGB numbers aren't part of any official spec. Just conversions for various electronic display systems. You can find wildly different numbers all over the internet. You shouldn't use them to compare paint colours. I know you find it helpful, but paint chips, colour wheels and formulas are the only reliable way to colour match. The numbers you quoted above have no relation to the physical world of light reflectance vs light mixing on screens.

This page states The colors in the Federal Standard set have no official names, so I guess that explains the discrepancies.
https://www.dot.state.oh.us/Divisions/E ... 20Spec.pdf

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2021 4:34 am 
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Thanks Darren,

“Real” paint isn’t too much use when it comes to model air brushing and I can buy the actual RAN paint but only in very large drums of it.

I’m afraid that nearly all of that means nothing to me. It does say 26270 which is good.

The RGBs are useful when looking at paint colours here as the paint companies quote them along with the LRV and Hex # on their websites assuming you have worked out how to drill down though all their waffle to get to the information.

I have found one paint company who state they will create a paint to various specifications including NCS colours and to a set RGB. However, you have to buy directly from them and can only get acrylic paint. Presumably because the airlines and post office will not accept enamel for delivery. As most states are in lockdown, I’m not too sure any paint is being made right now.

BTW is 36270 used at all? I just wondered why it existed.


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