Scharnhorst, final camouflage

[Olaf Held]

This was posted in the discussion about the box art of the new Dragon 1/350 Scharnhorst:

The actual ship was in grey tones.

Perhaps not; Randy Short from ShipCamouflage.Com said he's seen DKM documents indicating she was in Norwegian paint at the time. He just left for a trip otherwise I'd let him know about this thread... he won't be around to respond for a bit.

To my knowledge, there were no documents on how to paint a specific ship. If this really does exist, and if it says blue tones in case of SH, then it would be quite contradictive to testimony of two Norwegian agents of the resistance that the ship was in grey tones. I got this information from Antonio and I think it is true, hence I e-mailed this to Rob. Besides this, there were NO �Norwegian� colours (and btw, no �Baltic� colours). If you say SH was painted in Norwegian colours, then I assume you are referring to the paints listed under �Camouflage Paints for coastal areas� (lit. translated from German). The other section, of course was �Camouflage paints for (open) sea)�. Both appear in the 1944 paint regulations, so after SH went down. In the 1941 edition of these regulations, there are just a few camouflage paints, NOT divided into �Coast� or �Sea� � but I don�t know anything about the years in between. But my point is, a ship wearing this camouflage pattern for about six month, during which it spent the majority of time at anchorages in the grey and winterly fjords, there would be no need to paint blue colours on. I hope Randy can chime in when back from the trip. I really would like to know what document he is referring to �

Happy painting ~ Olaf

[Gilbert]

Hi Olaf,
According to Antonio's deep research, Scharnhorst final camouflage was this one:

SH14_Sizilien_New_final.png

Credit: A.toller/A.bonomi

Cheers
Gilbert

[Olaf Held]

Yes, that's what I'm trying to say. I can't say if it is accurate to the last corner, but the main point was that the ship was in grey tones. This is what I believe until someone else comes around the corner and proves me wrong. I really would love a blue Scharnhorst and I hope Randy will chime in and provide a useful source for it. A useful source, or a primary source, would be a contempory official document or at least personal testimony. A secondary source would be a book such as Jung, Abendroth and Kelling's "Anstriche und Tarnanstriche der Kriegsmarine" ... although well researched, always to be taken with a grain of salt ...

Happy painting ~ Olaf!

[rtwpsom2]

Steve Wiper shared a ton of his photo collection with me in order to do the Scharnhorst, and, amongst that collection, there were about 10 usable photos of this paint scheme. Now I can't comment on the colors, since they were all black and white, but from those images I noticed a few minor problems with Antonio's color scheme. Here is the camo as near as I can reckon from the photos. Once again, I make no claims about the colors. If anyone can provide better information on the pattern, feel free to comment.





The boot topping actually extended 1 meter lower than depicted, this is a known issue, but too big an operation to correct right now. Also the lower hull is a much more subdued reddish brown, I just used a default color here because I didn't have a better resource at the time.

***EDIT***

This is what Olaf sent me on the colors:

Wei� (white) RAL 9002

Hellgrau 50 (light grey) RAL 7001 (normally used for the superstructure in the so-called peace-time or 50/51 livery, on top of which normally every camo was applied to)

Dunkelgrau 51 (dark grey) RAL 7000 (normally used for the hull in the so-called peace-time or 50/51 livery, on top of which normally every camo was applied to) - (it's not really dark, it's more a "medium grey")

Dunkelgrau 2 (dark grey) RAL 7024 (this was a camouflage paint, e.g. dark bow/stern + turret tops on Bismarck), this was lighter than the dark grey decks.

Dunkelgrau 1 (dark grey) RAL 7016 (which is the shade for both the boot-topping and the dark grey painted steel decks), it was darker than RAL 7024

Schiffsbodenfarbe III Rot 5 (ship's bottom paint/antifouling) RAL 8013 (the "8" indicates that it belongs to the range of brown colours in the RAL system. It had some red in it.

[Gabor]

Dear rtwpsom2,

RAL 7000 and 7024 has a slight blue tone and sometimes (when the weather is sunny and clear) they look like blue. If you go to the bismarck-class.dk you will find a good color photo about Bismarck in Kiel. There you can see RAL 7000 on the hull. But if you paint those colors to your SH what Olaf sent you, then the result will be Antonio's camo.

[Olaf Held]

Ok, let's focus on the pattern, not on the colours until Randy will (hopefully) chime in.

I think there were slight variations in the pattern, e.g. the dark vertical band on the front of the funnel. In some photos it is visible, in others not. Apart from this, Rob, your pattern seems at first glance to be spot on. There seems to a problem on turret Anton, the dark aft part stretched a bit further forward and had a slightly different shape. Then, the "wave" on the hull below the aft rangefinder/gun director should be a bit enlegthened aft, making the wave less curved. I have a portside photo, can't post it for copyright reasons, on which the aft 10.5 cm Flak is trained to port and the "wave" on the hull lines up with the (now left (forward) facing) side of the gun. The same applies to the aft "wave" under turret Caesar. On your illustration it roughly ends at the barrels of the turret but it should stretch a bit further aft. It could be that the starboard side was a bit different in this case. On the same photo, the aft rangefinder/gun director is trained to starboard (?) and the rear - now towards the camera - is in two colours, maybe white and RAL 7001. Difficult on b/w photos ...

There may be other issues with the pattern - but how deep should we go here? To the last inch? I guess not ...
The pattern on the superstructure with all the clutter from the cranes, boats, guns, shadow etc. is very hard to pin down ...

The boot-topping: On battleships it was 2 metres in width, 1 metre below and 1 metre above the CWL.

Happy painting ~ Olaf!

[Tracy White]

Randy will (hopefully) chime in.

Just as a FYI, he's on vacation until the 8th of this month and will probably need a day or two to catch up on his return.

[Antonio Bonomi]

Ciao all,

Ok, here is the authour of that drawing and the guy that on early year 2000 was the one that strongly beleived that the so called 'Mountain profile ' was Schanhorst last camouflage, while the majority of the persons were still thinking that the dark grey one was the last one.

Of course evidences have demonstrated I was right and now everybody knows that the ' Mountain profile ' is the Scharnhorst last camo from July 1943 until December 26th, 1943, still well visible on the wreckage at North Cape.

Initially I have analyzed and produced 3 differents schemes, on 3 different colour tones.

The first one on red brown/green as it was suggested being like that on a German camouflage book photo caption; this one :

http://www.amazon.de/Die-Anstriche-Tarn ... 3763759646

The second one on Norwegian blue tones, as that camo on Scharnhorst was made on July 1943 meanwhile Lutzow Husar one on Km blue tone colours was made at same time and the camo could simulate sea waves according to some persons.

The third one that resulted to be the correct one was made on tone of greys, like the Tirpitz Op. Spitzbergen camo done on same timeframe on July 1943, and was representing Norway mountain profiles with snow on them, that is the reason of the thin white line on top of the camo patterns representing Norwegian mountains.

So NO red brown tones, NO blue tones, but grey tones.

Were are the evidences : on a Norwegian underground communication to British Intelligence on late 1943 while they were preparing the trap of North cape were Scharnhorst was finally sunk; source Alf R. Jacobsen excellent book on Scharnhorst at pages 241-242.

http://www.amazon.com/Scharnhorst-Alf-R ... 0750934042

Not only the British required Norwegian underground agents to draw Scharnhorst camo patterns and send it to them on paper, but since they were not sure about the colours used by the Germans they asked via radio to the Norwegian agents and the response was very clear : the Scharnhorst camo patterns are mainly done on Grey tones.

The latest version of that camo drawing that can be now a lot improved on camo details since many new photos are now available is here in :

http://kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=450

If any help is needed and I can contribute to release a better overall model or better camouflage instructions just feel free to contact me; no problems as usual, at the end all those camouflage infos on Kriegsmarine warships came out of my 37 years study of them so far.

On the original colours I can only support the trusting on Olaf Held, he is the real expert on RAL German colours and I always rely on him for colours as well as translations German/English.

@Rob,

I can see some problems also on the technical layout of your drawings showed above, just 2 easy ones, ..... there are no torpedo installations as far as I can see, totally missed, ... and there are the flagpoles that should not be there at all during war time .... just as starters ...... than there is another important detail I discovered lately not present on my drawings yet and still unknown to the most, .... as researches at top level never stops, ....

Bye Antonio

[Marco_Trigo]

than there is another important detail I discovered lately not present on my drawings yet and still unknown to the most, .... as researches at top level never stops, ....

Fine, I'll take the bait: what important detail is that?

Marco

[Antonio Bonomi]

Ciao all,

OK Marco, here it is for you, ...... and for everybody that want to make a perfect model or drawing of Scharnhorst on 1943 version.

On the back of the B-Bruno turret, on the sloped part there were 2 boxes as you can see on the photo in this photo gallery on Scharnhorst 1943 photos.

http://www.scharnhorst-class.dk/scharnh ... lyear.html

Go on the fifth raw from the top and you see 2 smaller photos of Scharnhorst on early 1943, on march 1943 to be precise, taken during an oiling exercise with Tirpitz.
The 2 photos are one aside the other, now look at the photo on the right and you will see a detailed close view of A and B main turrets.
Ok, once you are there you can clearly see on the sloped back part of B-Bruno turret the 2 boxes I am talking about.

Those 2 boxes were there also on late 1943 when Scharnhorst was sunk with her final camouflage.

So if anybody wants to make a perfect model of Scharnhorst on 1943, as well as correct drawings or 3D reproduction, those 2 boxes must be there on the back of B-Bruno turret.

Easy, clear and irrefutable evidence since I have also late 1943 photos and they are still there.

Than I give you another one, .. for free, .. look at the small photo on the left and you will see on top of the aft rangefinder a radar antenna,.... just under the flag that for Scharnhorst was placed there on the mainmast dedicated post, ..... this radar antenna is missed too,....

As said, top level research never quit on those ships, .. for the one who lead it, .. others can only copy, .. once the discovery is shared,....

Bye Antonio

[Gilbert]

Ciao Antonio,

I have learned something new, thanks to your research. Could you please confirm that Sharnhorst's main deck remained unpainted in 1943 ?

TIA e Saluti
Gilbert

[Marco_Trigo]

Thank you!

Indeed, there they are, but their shape is hard to make out. Any idea of their dimensions and what they are there for?

Marco

[rtwpsom2]

They are floater covers and they are on the model dragon has, however this forum is for paint and camoflauge, not discussions of dragon's scharnhorst. That thread is here:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=45071

[Antonio Bonomi]

Ciao all,

@ Rob,

OK, hoping that Dragon will add those boxes and the torpedo tubes including the loading cranes and the torpedo boxes on their model lets remain on the camouflage of Scharnhorst on late 1943.

Who gave you the input to paint Scharnhorst on blue tones ? I am just curious, ......

You wrote you have 10 good photos to work with provided you by Steve Wiper, can you see on them the top of the main tower being white and the bow darker camo pattern I have painted on my camouflage example ?

Are you working to make the camouflage scheme for Dragon kit instruction set ?

Do you need any help ?

Whate are the main differences you found between my drawing and your realization ?

Do you agree with the grey tones being the correct ones and the camo being mountains and not sea waves ?

Bye Antonio

[rtwpsom2]

I am not a camo guy, so asking my opinion on wether they are grey or blue is like asking Paris Hilton her opinion on string theory, it is kind of pointless. I am a CAD guy, I use the colors I am told. The colors came from Steve Wiper. I am not going to make any decisions on the colors until I have heard from him and Randy in this thread. I have to have some sort of consensus before I can render a verdict (thats a pun, son, get it? render?) Sorry, I was channeling Foghorn Leghorn for a minute.

I wish I could share the images I have of the camo, because I think you would agree with my placement if you could see it, but the images come from Steve and he shared them with me on the condition that I protect his interests where they are concerned.

Also go to the other thread to see some answers to your other questions.

[Marco_Trigo]

...is like asking Paris Hilton her opinion on string theory...

Not G-String theory... Fine, I'll shut the hell up.

Back to the subject, I think that camo will be really hard to paint. Could Dragon think about including masks as is becoming more frequent these days?

Marco

[Antonio Bonomi]

Ciao all,

@ Rob,

OK, so it was Steve Wiper as you wrote that gave you the colour infos.
Well I think I need to ask him now from were he got those infos as mine are different as you can easily realize.
But I know Steve since some time and he knows me, so it should be easy.

So Steve and Randy will take the decision on your 3D work colours and scheme that will be used for what ? I am just curious .....

I think I have all the images Steve have provided you and I suppose I have many more, .. but lets see what Steve will think about the camo overall evaluation now.

@ Marco,

I made that camo on the Heller 1 / 400 model and I made tape mask's, they worked just fine,..even if I forget one piece on the aft hull,....

http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html



Bye Antonio

[rtwpsom2]

I will weigh everyone's input, not just Steve and Randy's, so I am hoping you guys can reach a consensus.

[Tracy White]

So Steve and Randy will take the decision on your 3D work colours and scheme that will be used for what ? I am just curious

When they have a chance they'll discuss it; Steve hasn't seen the documents Randy mentioned so he will of course want to ask some questions.

Until Randy gets back, has a day or two to get caught up, and they talk there is not much point in speculating. But, as you said, Steve will know more about the photos, if he can talk about them.

[Antonio Bonomi]

Ciao all,

@ Rob and Tracy,

it sounds good to me, I am an open guy and willing to help, so I will wait their coming back, no problems.

@ Rob,

I see you use the Scharnhorst coat of arm as your personal avatar, just as I use the Tirpitz one as you can see as Tirpitz is my favourite ship.

A curiosity question from my side, .. do you assume the light band inside the blue being white or silver ?

Bye Antonio