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 Post subject: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:46 am 
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Out of curiosity, I started comparing the photographs of HMS Prince of Wales during the Atlantic Charter and at Singapore with a few well-known camouflage patterns, namely the Tamiya PoW color chart and from Alan Raven's WR Press camouflage book. It appears they are incorrect. Raven givens only 4 colors (one colour was painted out) and misses some rather large parts of the actual scheme but does Tamiya add too many colors? Does anyone know where Medium blue on the port side on A and Y turret and on the hull near the catapult comes from? The spotted pattern in A turret isn't visible on the footage I have just downloaded from critical past. The footage also nicely shows the camouflage pattern carried over the superstructure near the catapult.


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:30 pm 
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Earlier this year Steve Millard and I spent a couple of months trying to sort out Prince of Wales’ disruptive camouflage scheme. Steve can correct me if I am wrong, but we agreed that no published drawing/set of painting instructions that we could find gets it right. We are also content that she remained in at least a 5 colour scheme to the end. However the scheme itself was modified between first application and sinking.

We found that we could agree on the shapes of the various camouflage panels in most locations, but in a few places, especially high up on the superstructure, the various images could be interpreted differently.

What we ultimately found that we could not agree on was the likely colour of some of the major panels.


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:37 pm 
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Interesting! I've looked at the sceme by Dumas, again slightly different, but quite specific in the colors. I think I'll repeat your work and come to similar conclusions. The turret camouflage on top of A-turret as depicted by Tamiya is captured on one photograph, though for now it looks like wear and tear is more likely than it being part of the actual pattern.


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:59 pm 
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Here is another view of the roof of A turret....


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:43 pm 
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That's a shot from a movie; here indeed the pattern is indistinguishable. I'll scan the image that shows it more clearly this weekend.


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 12:00 pm 
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Here's the image scanned from Warship, with the necessary post-processing (smoothing, sharpening, contrast enhancements).

Attachment:
Dumas_POW.jpg


There are some spots on A turret, but it looks too random to be part of the camouflage. I'd say it's normal wear and rear of the last layer of paint.

This image was credited to the Imperial War Museum, but their (online) database doesn't show it, and I haven't been able to find this image in any other book I have.


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Last edited by EJFoeth on Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 12:31 pm 
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I think it was raining and the turret top was covered in a sheen of surface water in places forming puddles.

I think that the the shapes are caused by the effect of the wind on the patches of water. If you look at this picture taken a few minutes later, further into the anchorage, the shapes of the pattern have changed.

Attachment:
arrival ab.JPG



There is no sign of the patterning in this image taken on the way back from the conference

Attachment:
return aa.JPG


nor in the overhead picture of PoW's A turret roof on a dry day (see Raven and Roberts) a bit later.


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Last edited by dick on Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 1:45 pm 
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Puddles of water? It is certainly the most plausible explanation considering the second image you posted.

(Is this footage of POW approaching the anchorage available? Should check Critical Past again, perhaps).

Thank you for your answer.


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 6:30 pm 
I don't Know where to start with the camouflarge on this ship if any!

Jem
x


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 12:35 am 
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I have studied the ship carefully to model it and always find that there is more to learn. I bought the Raven books, bought profile Morskie, got the WEM paints and photo etch for modelling the Tamiya HMS Prince of Wales.

I will attach photos of what I have done:

Image

Image

Image

Image

It is my view that the best camouflage pattern is the Raven source as it is very close to the Tamiya pattern. Tamiya does get the colours wrong (strangely enough the paint mixes are close to the RN colours), however Tamiya does not list the location of the colours correctly. The information from the Force Z survivors on the painting is completely wrong.

I know my model will not be 100% correct with paint, but I feel it is the best I could do with the information available. I am very happy for advice and would love any useable images of the supposed camouflaged wooden decks at the time of sinking. I did use the WEM paints with this model. Based on Singapore photos there may have been some of the MS3 still on HMS Prince of Wales. It is hard to tell with weathering, salt spray, shades of light etc.

I welcome any comments or if people have suggestions on how it should have been painted you are welcome to save the photo and photshop it to show me. There are still parts of this model that can carefully be repainted.


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 12:37 am 
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Testing image

Image


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 6:19 am 
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That is certainly a good model and I recognize Raven's camouflage scheme. One of the confusing items with Raven's scheme is the following frame

Attachment:
POW_frame.jpg


It's from the end of the Imperial War Museum's King George V class battleships DVD. It shows, among others, that the fifth camouflage color was not painted out as you can see clearly a the stern and that there is good contrast between those colors. I also believe that this very light color was only applied at the bow (both sides perhaps carrying over the the port side of the main guns) and the stern (portside only), perhaps 507C+white added (It's not white). If I scan my Snyder & short camouflage samples and set it to black & white, no color gives the contrast as observed here with MS3, 507C, or B6.

Now, I know that the light blue B6 is given as one of the possible colors for HMS PoW, but I cannot see it in the color frame. From light to dark, my current best guess is

A MS1
B MS2/507A OR B5
C MS3
D 507C
E D+White, or perhaps faded white (draught marks and uniforms as shown in Singapore are again much lighter).

So, no B6. This would be close to the other first admiralty disruptive camouflage schemes as for HMS Renown, plus the light color (see IWM image A 7322)

Now, there might me all kinds of reasons why a blue would not show up on the image (haven't studied that) but the sky and sea look properly blueish? If it were only be as clear as this image :smallsmile:

I've not seen any images of camouflage on the decks so I have no idea about that!


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Last edited by EJFoeth on Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 6:43 am 
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Thats an interesting photo and it is why POW is so hard to model. I am aware that part of the stern camouflage was still on in Singapore as it clearly shows the remains of some pattern close to the stern.

I am sure the MS1, B6 and 507C existed seen from that photo and it looks like MS3 is still on it at that stage. As for B5 that is a good question and I am sure photography experts out there can answer. The fact is so many sources keep saying B5. Perhaps clouds, reflections from the water and the like can cast a shadow or create an illusion of a colour. On a side note I have been through the Norwegian Fjords and the colour of the water there can make a white cruise ship look like it has some blue on it, which is probably why there are accounts of Scharnhorst and its final camouflage being in shades of blue.

Back to Prince of Wales. The photo there shows the top of the aft funnel is white, the MS3 is clearly there which in reality is a very light shade of green about how it is in that photo. I have the WEM paint of it ready. From the Raven books the MS3 would clearly fit in the gaps of my model and be able to match up to the photos.

B5 may well be in that photo but for some reason we cant make it out. Take a look at the forward HAC tower which looks like the sky colour and could be B5. Being a working Navy perhaps some camouglage schemes took days or weeks to fully apply?


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 7:50 am 
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Forgot to mention that the HMS Belfast still has WWII camouflage painted on it in London, see below:

Image

The foremost colour is B6, follwed by B5, the lightest gray is supposed to be 507C (which looks completely different to WEM's 507C) and the darkest gray is 507A.

At least this is something modern we know of that has the actual colours that were supposed to be on POW, namely B5 and B6.


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:13 am 
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Outstanding models! I also have been troubled with the B6 but i used it as well, except for the port front bridge superstructure side & i left off the MS3 too! Who knows? Great models. Thanks you for your photo's EJ.


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 1:10 pm 
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Do we know that Belfast's current paint is correctly matched to the WWII ones?

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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 2:26 pm 
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Sutho wrote:
B5 may well be in that photo but for some reason we cant make it out.


I think you mean B6, in which case I agree. Some videofootage shows patches with nearly the same gray but a slightly different reflection (if that is really the case?). The B&W images of the color charts of B6 and 507C appear identical.

Regarding HMS Belfast: I see only 3 colors on that image? 507C, B5 & B6?

I find HMS PoW's camouflage pattern quite interesting and most confusing. I haven't been able to confirm any camouflage on the toward bridge levels and HACS directors... wonder where that came from?


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 6:59 pm 
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I have more photos of the Belfast here that does appear B5 can look like 507C or not turn up at all depending on the angle. The first is a film photo and the rest are digital.

Image

We know that B5 exists on the port side right after B6 on the hull and it is difficult to make out the B5 here.

The rest are here:

Image

Image

Image

Image

Although I am not sure how close to the real WWII colours they are on this ship the B5 is close to what WEM sells and so it the B6 and 507A. The 507C is another story.

Here is one from Wikipedia showing a closer 507C to WEM's and it also shows a close blend to the B5:

Image

and more from the net:

Image

Image

There is lots of information out there on Prince of Wales and I think the trick is trying to decipher the B+W photos and understanding colour shades and relfections better.

I am also extremely keen to get any photographic evidence of the camouflaged wooden decks that POW supposedly had in December 1941.


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 11:27 pm 
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Back to the Raven book on page 29 of volume 4 there is an excellent B+W photo of HMS Prince of Wales with the 5 colour scheme. I am able to make out 507C, B6 and MS1. Distinguishing MS3 from B5 is hard but I have photoshopped one of my model photos below to give an example.

Image

I am satisfied that the port side is 100% correct in the Raven publication, however there is the issue of a B5 missing from the diagram on page 28 of Warship perspectives that is clearly visible on the ship when it is photographed leaving Singapore. (I photo shopped the B5 in where it is). I am satisfied that based on photos and even the Tamiya diagram that where I have added the MS3 example to the stern is where it would have been on the actual ship. I suspect it may have been on the bow and also elsewhere on the hull. In the B+W photo of the port side in the book I am describing 507C can only clearly be seen on the stern and upper works of the ship. The aft face of the searchlight platform on the fore funnel appears to be painted in something other than 507C. The aft face of the forward HAC tower appears to be darker, although this could be soot.

Leaving Singapore here:

Image


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:17 am 
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Nice photoshopping. I do wonder how you can tell the difference between 507C and B6 on B&W shots? B5 and MS2/3 are close, contrast-wise, as are 507C, B6 and MS4. Ms4 on the stern makes sense, but then it follows most of the ship is in MS4 based on the following image

Image

Note how the dark patch (color D) wraps around the stern and is found on the aft superstructure as well, meaning that most of the starboard side is MS4. The lightest color isn't found anywhere again except near the stern. This would make the bridge MS4 also (or whatever the color may be).

I disagree on a few points : I do not think the Raven scheme is correct on the port side. I & Richard Dennis made a contrast map of POW separately and compared findings to arrive more or less at the same conclusion; of the 5 camouflage colors (assuming that there isn't a 6th we cannot observe in B&W) the main color is the second lightest, say D. The lightest color, E, is only applied near the bow and stern. I have an annotated image that I will upload tonight. Raven is not correct in this, even showing a color change over the bridge structure that cannot be observed on any of the good photographs, mainly the one from Burt and:

http://blog.ontheslipway.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Dumas010.jpg

This image clearly shows the one-but-lightest color (D), running over the bow up to the main bridge structure. Note that only a few very light patches can be seen: bow, stern, funnel, perhaps the main turrets. You have to be careful as contrasts between area's may change from image to the next though. No contrast change over the bridge in this image.

This image, which I ordered to get a better look, confirms this.

On the starboard side, the lightest color (E) appears only on the bow, a small stripe against the deck, and a few spots a bit lower. I'll upload my contrast images later so we can discuss further.


Last edited by EJFoeth on Mon Jan 30, 2012 5:38 am, edited 5 times in total.

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