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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:35 am 
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From all the pictures of taken on deck of HMS KGV in 1490 it certainly looks like a darkened deck, but pics in January show much of it to have washed off. The colour shot from1942 seems pretty conclusive.

Image THE REFIT OF HMS KING GEORGE V. 1940, ROSYTH, IN DRY DOCK.. © IWM (A 1490) IWM Non Commercial License

(Just an example)

Image ON BOARD HMS KING GEORGE V WHEN SHE TOOK LORD AND LADY HALIFAX TO AMERICA IN JANUARY 1941.. © IWM (A 2878) IWM Non Commercial License

Shots of HMS PoW do not shot these dark decks (or remnants)? One exception is the deck near the catapults

Image THE ROYAL NAVY DURING THE SECOND WORLD WAR. © IWM (A 3904) IWM Non Commercial License

Seems to be some layer of the deck was applied? Might also be the deck is simply wet (just hosed). The difference would then be nearly indistinguishable from a darkened deck..


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:23 am 
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Dick:

Pray tell what is MSD, and would you know whether "Japan Black" was a pure black, a very dark grey, or a bluish-black color? The decks in the color photo I linked to look very black.

EJ:

Thanks for sharing those photos. I agree that it looks like the decks of KGV and PoW have been painted over with some kind of darker tint--though in the latter case it seems to be wearing off.

Very interesting.... thanks so much again to the both of you!!!

Best,

Mike E.

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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:58 am 
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SovereignHobbies
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Mike E. wrote:
Dick:

Pray tell what is MSD, and would you know whether "Japan Black" was a pure black, a very dark grey, or a bluish-black color? The decks in the color photo I linked to look very black.

EJ:

Thanks for sharing those photos. I agree that it looks like the decks of KGV and PoW have been painted over with some kind of darker tint--though in the latter case it seems to be wearing off.

Very interesting.... thanks so much again to the both of you!!!

Best,

Mike E.


In case Richard (dick) doesn't see this for a while (busy man!) MSD was "Merchant Ship Deck", one of two merchant ship colours listed in the same file as naval colours in file ADM212/124 at The National Archives, Kew, London.

Their sample of MSD was a very good match with Colourcoats RN01, which itself is labelled as 507A but a the darkest end of the allowable limits for 507A.



As an aside - a rabbit hole we've been down and come back out of is to try to make a connection between MS1, 2, 3, 4, 4A and the merchant pair MSD and MSS then conclude that MS stands for "Merchant Ship". It sounds good when you have that first "light bulb" moment, but we've collectively found zero documented evidence of what the MS in MS1,2,3,4,4A stood for. I think the only place where they even appear together is in that file (Richard can correct me if he's seen something else) and whilst it specifically spells out "Merchant Ship Deck" and abbreviates that to "M.S.D." and likewise for MSS, it makes no such connection to the naval camouflage MS series. I mention this only to nip that one before it even buds. :thumbs_up_1:

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http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:14 am 
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James:

Thanks SO much for that clarification. Very, very interesting. And yes, I always wondered about the origins of "MS"...

Dick, would still love clarification regarding "Japan Black."

Regarding Prince of Wales, there is a nice overhead shot of her in "Ensign 1: King George the Fifth Class Battleships" by Alan Raven, taken very early in her career (she still mounted UP launchers on B and Y turrets) where it is clear that her deck is a very dark color.

And here is another photo of PoW from around the same time where it seems the deck is painted a dark color: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/330381322 ... =530&h=378

That's definitely PoW as there is no external degaussing coil on the hull, as carried by KGV.

Thanks again all for sharing your knowledge and insights.

Best,

Mike E.

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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:32 am 
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If you mean this one, then yes, it certainly looks very dark. And the deck at the catapult does not!

Attachment:
Ensign_01_016.jpg


Also, this image (which is not labelled HMS PoW but I spent too much time at this site and I'm quite sure it's her) shows that a bit a blackness just below this derrick and what appear to be traces on the deck....

Image THE VISIT OF HIS MAJESTY THE KING TO ROSYTH. 5 MARCH 1941.. © IWM (A 3367) IWM Non Commercial License

Blast! The IWM increased their image preview size and you cannot download it...


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:12 am 
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EJ:

Yep, that's it!!! What a great photo, and yes, the catapult deck looks like it's still natural wood!

Thanks so much for sharing.

And you CAN download photos from the new "improved" IWM site. Just hit the "Use Image" button below and to the right of the photo, and a download icon will appear. Hit the icon and download as usual.

Thanks again,

Mike E.

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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:18 am 
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Mike E. wrote:
And you CAN download photos from the new "improved" IWM site. Just hit the "Use Image" button below and to the right of the photo, and a download icon will appear. Hit the icon and download as usual.


"Small" image only :cry: I downloaded a few thousand images from the IWM website for easy searching... so perhaps I should be glad I cannot download the larger version... again...


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:58 pm 
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Hi All,

Hi Mike E, quite a few years ago I decided to see the ships logs of HMS Prince of Wales, according to her log whilst at Scapa and prior to the Denmark Strait battle during general cleaning of her paintwork and actual ship painting it does mention painting of her metal decks and staining of her upper deck.

I think this may reference what Richard has posted regarding the Japan Black mixture etc. Unfortunately what was used to stain her upper deck is not mentioned just that the poor old sailors were doing it!

Best wishes
Cag


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:45 am 
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Thanks Cag. That's another useful bit of info!

Best,

Mike E.

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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:07 am 
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Location: England
Mike,

Re Japan Black see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_black

Best wishes


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:56 am 
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Just as a follow-up on my cannot-download-the-new-high-res-IWM images: click Use image, click Download, replace large by super in the URL. Now you can save the larger image. Example:

https://media.iwm.org.uk/ciim5/423/959/super_000000.jpg

Now I have to program a script that replaces all my existing footage... if I can even manage that :Tirade:


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:05 pm 
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Dick:

Thanks so much for the clarification on Japan Black, and for sharing your extensive knowledge with us all.

Best,

Mike E.

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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:29 am 
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Location: Bad Krozingen/Germany
Having the Prince of Wales from Flyhawk ready for painting, the question is now how to paint it.
Flyhawk says there are not sure about the colors but the call out for:
- Basecolor B6
- Camo 507C, B5, MS1, MS3
- Metaldeck MS1 and B5
- Wooddeck wood color

Is this plausible? I can live with a possible camo on my PoW. And as it seems the black paint on the wood deck was washed away, was it likely to get repainted before sailing to far East?

Greetings Christian

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115 Years of the Battle of the Yellow Sea, 1/700 IJN Matsushima and Hashidate 1904
1/700 ICM SMS König 1916
1/700 Flyhawk HMS Penelope 1939
1/700 Fujimi IJN Shokaku 1941
1/700 Fujimi IJN Nagato 1941
1/700 Aoshima IJN Hayasui 1944


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:28 pm 
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Hi Christian,

It's obviously hard to say for sure, but I personally don't think B5 was on Prince of Wales. If it was, then it was in a very, very bad state by the time it went to Singapore.

I also am doubtful that B6 was on Prince of Wales.

I have a feeling that it may have been MS1, HFG, possibly MS3 but I'm not convinced, 507C, MS4A and white. I can't prove that.

So long as everyone understands this isn't finished and there is still more to confirm the exact nature of B6, and that I am NOT offering to have PM discussions with 15 different users about it (we'll publish the findings when we're ready :thumbs_up_1: ) we know that B6 was not a light green. We've already published our little piece on B5 and whilst I had a few emails about it generally, I've had no actual challenge on it including from John Snyder to whom I sent a copy, as well as Jeff Herne who co-authored the RN charts on Steel Navy. So, it seems everyone has accepted that B5 was indeed a strong blue - I'm not seeing that anywhere on Prince of Wales in the brief colour cine film. I'm not seeing B6 as it is shown here either. A quick note at this point is that this B6 is much bluer than the National Archives sample which seems to have turned rather greyish, but agrees on tone. The National Archives sample has no green about it whatsoever - I matched it as a low saturated reddish blue. This that you see here does have a basis however and corroborates well with 2 sources. I won't share those yet. This colour may yet change a little, but it definitely will not be green!
Image

Image

The following borrowed from EJ Foeth to save navigating backwards.
Image

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James Duff
Sovereign Hobbies Ltd
http://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk

Current build:
HMS Imperial D09 1/350
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151


Last edited by SovereignHobbies on Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 7:36 pm 
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I was going to wait a bit before posting this but given the new information on colours it does not look like B5 was on Prince of Wales assuming that what we have from Sovereign is indeed correct as it appears to be.

Instead of B5 I would probably be leaning towards the 50/50 mix of the two main greys 507A and 507C or perhaps an imprecise mixing of both. On the starboard quarter of the camouflage the contrast is too distinguishable between the two darkest colours next to each other for it to be MS1 and 507A right next to each other. That is why I am leaning towards the 50/50 mix also known as 507B.

I am tending to agree the other main colour could be a MS colour as suggested by Sovereign, however I do have my own theories that the primary colour may have been in fact 507C with the lightest colour being an off white colour. I base that on the fact that there was a destroyer in 1940 HMS Janus that was painted in the home fleet greys and had division lines of RN white. I have the old WEM tins of this paint called "RN White" assuming Sovereign still sells this paint and is confident that it is actually a colour used by the RN then I am suggesting the lightest colour on Prince of Wales may have in fact been this off white colour with the next one being 507C, MS3 the unknown mix of what the Raven books called B5 followed by MS1.

I have spoken to one other via PM regarding my 507C theory given Sovereign revised it and they think it may hold some credibility worth looking into.

I would rather wait until Sovereign releases their new B6 and I think MS4 and MS4a to be certain before we all discuss this ship again. However I think it may be usefull to discuss the merits of 507C being on it with off white being the lightest colour. Sovereign seems confident their new 507C is correct and it seems to match photos much better than the WEM version. Like many the revised B5 did not help us at all as we all know it cant possibly be on Prince of Wales unless that colour slide has major problems.


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:52 am 
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Doh!

You're right. I have no idea what I was thinking. :Oops_1:

I have now amended my post there. Sorry if your's no longer makes as much sense Sutho!

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James Duff
Sovereign Hobbies Ltd
http://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk

Current build:
HMS Imperial D09 1/350
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:39 am 
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SovereignHobbies wrote:
Doh!

You're right. I have no idea what I was thinking. :Oops_1:

I have now amended my post there. Sorry if your's no longer makes as much sense Sutho!


Its alright, mine relates to the colours you have adjusted namely 507C. If that was on the Prince of Wales then it can be a useful discussion forward.


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:31 am 
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Looking at the port bow, either the paint just below the main deck is 507C and the slightly darker paint below it is MS4, or the paint just below the main deck is MS4A and the paint below is 507C as I see it.

I've got a trip in a couple of weeks where I hope to firm up my view on MS4 and MS4A. Dick has given me some information from the same source I'm going to see, and I've seen the M.S. samples at Kew. I think I have a fairly good idea what MS4 and MS4A really ought to look like, but I will be confident enough (or not!) to share that mid February.

I acquired this little gadget a couple of weeks ago:
https://nixsensor.com/

It's a pocket sized spectrophotometer what works via Bluetooth from a smartphone. It has its own calibrated light source so it needs simply touched to a sample, tap the screen of my phone and I have colour values (including CIELAB if I scroll down which I actually need and generally prefer working in besides) for that colour recorded using illuminant and observer angle of my choosing. It's currently my favourite toy :big_grin:

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Sovereign Hobbies Ltd
http://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk

Current build:
HMS Imperial D09 1/350
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:45 am 
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interesting inquiry !

do you plan to release (soon or later...) paint chip sets/pages as S&S did in 1999 ?

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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:13 am 
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SovereignHobbies wrote:
Looking at the port bow, either the paint just below the main deck is 507C and the slightly darker paint below it is MS4, or the paint just below the main deck is MS4A and the paint below is 507C as I see it.


You really need to cover several pictures and go over it properly, because your brain cannot compensate for the bow having a slight overhang and change in contrast (that is, mine can't). I'm fairly convinced the part just below the main deck is very light, the tone behind it the same as what's on the main superstructure.

SovereignHobbies wrote:
I've got a trip in a couple of weeks where I hope to firm up my view on MS4 and MS4A. Dick has given me some information from the same source I'm going to see, and I've seen the M.S. samples at Kew. I think I have a fairly good idea what MS4 and MS4A really ought to look like, but I will be confident enough (or not!) to share that mid February.


:woo_hoo:


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