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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:24 am 
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SovereignHobbies
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mister me wrote:
interesting inquiry !

do you plan to release (soon or later...) paint chip sets/pages as S&S did in 1999 ?


I'm not sure. Someone emailed me just last week asking me to publish all our CIELAB values because it would hel0 everyone else copy us.

I expect that either the competition will remain matched to Snyder and Short or copy our work, but I don't need to make it easy for everyone :big_grin:

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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:24 pm 
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Ok thanks for the input.
Attached I have the instruction with my conclusion about the camo.
But what about the steeldecks and the wooddecks?

Greetings Christian


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115 Years of the Battle of the Yellow Sea, 1/700 IJN Matsushima and Hashidate 1904
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1/700 Fujimi IJN Shokaku 1941
1/700 Fujimi IJN Nagato 1941
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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:49 pm 
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I think you could make a fairly sensible assumption that the steel decks would be a dark grey similar to MS2 or 507A.

Were it me I'd probably stick with wood coloured decks save for bits that looked like they may have been painted over (e.g. the dark blob at the stern)

Image

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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:21 pm 
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I think the dark blob is the stern 40 mm mounting.
John


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:36 pm 
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Yes, and all the bits and bobs on the quarterdeck are tone B.


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:41 am 
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ch hoeltge wrote:
Ok thanks for the input.
Attached I have the instruction with my conclusion about the camo.
But what about the steeldecks and the wooddecks?

Greetings Christian


Have a look at this sketch we made below at MW.com. The colours are still in flux, but this scheme captures all pictures a lot better than all the other scheme's I've seen so far. I also reconstructed the pattern of the main guns as well as I could. (And forget about the UPs, didn't bother removing them).

Attachment:
POW-playingarounds.jpg


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:47 pm 
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Location: Vincennes, FRANCE
SovereignHobbies wrote:
mister me wrote:
interesting inquiry !

do you plan to release (soon or later...) paint chip sets/pages as S&S did in 1999 ?


I'm not sure. Someone emailed me just last week asking me to publish all our CIELAB values because it would hel0 everyone else copy us.

I expect that either the competition will remain matched to Snyder and Short or copy our work, but I don't need to make it easy for everyone :big_grin:



If only you could develop a waterbased acrylic range !! My kingdom for an acrylic !!

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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:23 am 
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SovereignHobbies wrote:
Doh!

You're right. I have no idea what I was thinking. :Oops_1:

I have now amended my post there. Sorry if your's no longer makes as much sense Sutho!


Sorry, I have not noticed your post as edited since you first posted it. Can you please let us know what you intended to change.

I would really like to investigate the 507C theory of mine as to where it may be on the Prince of Wales. The new colour chips you have provided have helped with that.


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 3:25 pm 
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ch hoeltge wrote:
Ok thanks for the input.

But what about the steeldecks and the wooddecks?

Greetings Christian


Every photo I have of Prince of Wales in her disruptive scheme worn from July to December 1941 shows the wooden decks to have been unpainted/unstained.


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:14 am 
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Thanks again for your input. My PoW is already in the painting line :thumbs_up_1: .

Greetings Christian

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115 Years of the Battle of the Yellow Sea, 1/700 IJN Matsushima and Hashidate 1904
1/700 ICM SMS König 1916
1/700 Flyhawk HMS Penelope 1939
1/700 Fujimi IJN Shokaku 1941
1/700 Fujimi IJN Nagato 1941
1/700 Aoshima IJN Hayasui 1944


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:45 am 
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At this point I think I can say that I believe EJ has produced a sketch very close to the colour scheme on HMS Prince of Wales in late 1941.

I believe the colours used, from darkest to lightest, are most likely:

M.S.1
507A
M.S.3
507C
White

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Current build:
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http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:55 am 
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Great :thumbs_up_1: The MS4(a) versions you posted in your latest document do not seem to be candidate for this particular scheme. Now please lock the thread to avoid people to post more evidence to the contrary :heh:


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:08 am 
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Good idea :big_grin:

May I use your sketch on my site to replace previous colour suggestions (including B5 :Oops_1:)? :smallsmile:

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Current build:
HMS Imperial D09 1/350
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:27 am 
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Sure, go ahead. The line artwork is by Raven, incidentally. I could update the colour to match yours, but this sketch was made in a program I no longer have access to... I'll give it a try though

edit: version with "suggested typical norm" colours

Attachment:
camo-SV.jpg


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:20 pm 
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SovereignHobbies wrote:
At this point I think I can say that I believe EJ has produced a sketch very close to the colour scheme on HMS Prince of Wales in late 1941.

I believe the colours used, from darkest to lightest, are most likely:

M.S.1
507A
M.S.3
507C
White


I had discussed the same thing with EJ via PM not too long ago and we were leaning towards the same conclusion with 507C being the second lightest shade and a white/off-white being the lightest.

I have looked at the publication and it appears that MS3 has now been found to be a less green shade than what it appeared and is more sedated that could even give an impression of a greenish/greyish/blueish shade. Though we all see colours differently.

I will not be convinced of 507A being a candidate until I see your new propositions for 507A and MS1 next to each other. As it stands now the old WEM paints had the colours too similar together to be that colour.

Having that would primarly put Prince of Wales in a 507C colour which I tend to agree with given I have seen your new paints of it.


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:02 am 
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Sutho wrote:
I will not be convinced of 507A being a candidate until I see your new propositions for 507A and MS1 next to each other.


He just did a day earlier here:

http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=166899

Interesting, the tones A/B I had on my sketch are nearly identical to the final version of MS1/AP507A in the link above. MS3 is indeed less of a happy green and more of a greyish brown drab, as is the case for MS4 and MS4(A) (higher reflectance, of course). The new AP507C is the much bluer variant that is quite a distance from the uneducated guess I applied earlier. I'll throw in MS4A later for E just for the fun of it and to see what it will look like.


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:04 am 
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EJFoeth wrote:
Sutho wrote:
I will not be convinced of 507A being a candidate until I see your new propositions for 507A and MS1 next to each other.


He just did a day earlier here:

http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=166899

Interesting, the tones A/B I had on my sketch are nearly identical to the final version of MS1/AP507A in the link above. MS3 is indeed less of a happy green and more of a greyish brown drab, as is the case for MS4 and MS4(A) (higher reflectance, of course). The new AP507C is the much bluer variant that is quite a distance from the uneducated guess I applied earlier. I'll throw in MS4A later for E just for the fun of it and to see what it will look like.


I see it and I currently have the most recent produced tins of 507A. I might open one and paint a strip on paper next to the existing MS1 for comparison here.

It appears sovereign has gone the way we were discussing privately regarding the pattern. The new 507C is quite a striking colour in the sense that if it is painted next to black on the Repulse it appears a whiter colour yet the same paint on a destroyer I have called the HMS Janus painted next to pattern 507A old WEM tin, then the new 507C does look more blueish in contrast. It is very interesting and seeing it like that made me suspect that the lightest colour on Prince of Wales would have to be an off white.


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:07 am 
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Hi Gents,

The MS3 thing is perhaps a little deceptive. The greenishness is the same, would you believe. What has changed is that I plan to make it a bit darker. The existing Colourcoats RN06 is almost the same tonal value as both B6 and MS4 are supposed to be.

You're correct about the existing RN01 507A and RN04 MS1 being too close together. Infact, they're only around 2% apart in chroma / light reflectance value. The information we have now suggests that whilst MS1 is pretty much correct, the 507A is too dark. Once spread out properly they will be 4-7% apart (I plan to offer a 10% and a 13.something% version of it) and that will hit the mark :thumbs_up_1:

What's worth observation in general is that none of these colours ever looks quite "right" in isolation, or rendered against an unnatural background. As Richard Dennis has noted, the M.S. shades in particular were designed by artists and their purpose is to blend into the backgrounds in various lighting conditions - not necessarily to match the blue of the sea or sky or whatever - it doesn't quite work like that. As humans, our belief in how strong the hue of each of these colours should be is skewed, quite badly infact, by what we see around it. If we put MS3 next to a dark bluish grey like 507A then it looks very greeny-olive. On its own it looks like ditch water. With 507C it's the same thing. When on a CAFO 679/42 design plate surrounded by relatively neutral hued MS2, MS4 or MS4A it looks remarkably blue. On its own, against a blue sea and a blue sky, it just looks grey.

Once the tones are corrected, they look more like this attached :) P.S. "Future" renders are indicative only - as in I may still tweak slightly. There will be no new "revelations" which materially impact how they look or fit in with a camouflage scheme though.


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Sovereign Hobbies Ltd
http://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk

Current build:
HMS Imperial D09 1/350
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:14 pm 
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MS1/AP507A/MS4/MS4a/White :eyebrows:

Attachment:
camo-SV2.jpg


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:23 pm 
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I think you'done it lads ;)

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Sovereign Hobbies Ltd
http://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk

Current build:
HMS Imperial D09 1/350
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151


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