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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:37 am 
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Hope this will be settled before 1/350 flyhawk is out !!!

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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:49 am 
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I hope so too that it will be resolved soon.

The more I look at the photo on page 29 of Warship Perspectives Volume 4 there is a sufficient amount of white or what we know as white in that photo to suggest to me that the lightest tone was a very light colour and close to white. The canvas covers on the rear of the HAC directors had white stripes on them, the flags are clearly visible on the mast that are known to have white on them, their are sailors on deck which you can see the white of their naval shirts and the roofs of the tenders alongside the ship appear to have white on them. There is also an open door hatch on one of the AA guns of which the reverse side of the door would most likely have been painted white. The covers over the escape hatches on the stern also appear to be white. When you compare all this white to the lightest shade on the rear of the ship you can see if is very close. If it is not an off-white colour then I am hoping the next fit would be MS4A.


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:24 am 
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Can we discuss this profile which Evert Jan produce a couple of months back?

Attachment:
HMS Prince of Wales.jpg


Specifically, let's critique it systematically and find out if it fails in any way.

It has 5 camouflage colours; MS1, 507A, MS3, 507C, MS4A.
The overall impression is bluish without any very strong blues.
The lightest camouflage colour is not white, but MS4A.

Does it work? Do any aspects give particular cause for concern?

I think we need to change the aft funnel top to white rather than MS4A.


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:37 am 
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Funnel top should be white (the inserts, that is); I forgot to add the right layer while creating all the combinations.

I think this version is the most likely suspect...


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:48 am 
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Do the barrels run port-starboard or some other direction?

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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:39 am 
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Yes, and the side that is not black indicates which one goes where.


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:38 pm 
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EJFoeth wrote:
Funnel top should be white (the inserts, that is); I forgot to add the right layer while creating all the combinations.

I think this version is the most likely suspect...


I also think it's the best candidate so far. Is it easy enough to fix the funnel top?

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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:41 pm 
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Yes.

Attachment:
camo-blue_2.jpg


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:44 pm 
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I tend to agree that it is the most likely fit for what we are looking for.

As said there are not prominent blues but subtle and if the publication that Alan Raven produced stated overall in B6, then we can perhaps suspect a identification of B6 and 507C which would make sense and still give it that overall bluish look. Also as we have seen is 507C is also referred to as the foreign stations grey and Prince of Wales was certainly intended for foreign stations.

Now that I have seen what Sovereign has determined to be MS4A I am confident it could well be the lightest shade. Had it been anything like the old WEM version then I would say no, but the new MS4A what Sovereign has produced I would describe as a light whitish-grey colour and it seems to have fitted my vision of what I was trying to propose with off-white or RN-white.

To me seeing the new paints and the faded colour slide of Prince of Wales the above scheme by EJ is probably about as close as we can say it will ever get.


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:05 am 
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SovereignHobbies wrote:

Specifically, let's critique it systematically and find out if it fails in any way.

….It has 5 camouflage colours; MS1, 507A, MS3, 507C, MS4A.
The overall impression is bluish without any very strong blues.
The lightest camouflage colour is not white, but MS4A.

Does it work? Do any aspects give particular cause for concern?



It is perhaps easiest to start with tone D and then see what knock-on effects that has for B, C & E. To my way of thinking D cannot have been 507C but has to have been something darker:

1. Consider the photo at Argentia with RIPLEY alongside PoW’s starboard side. RIPLEY is a North Atlantic escort and her hull has clearly been camouflaged something darker than a light tone Mediterranean grey/507C. Yet the amidships area of tone D below PoW'S catapult looks if anything slightly darker than even the lightest areas on Ripley's hull (other than the remains of the false bow wave and the white-painted bow).

Attachment:
Prince of Wales and Ripley August 1941 - Copy.jpg


2. A photo (IWM A 4989) was taken at Iceland on the way back from Argentia in August 1941 with Tribal class TARTAR alongside PoW. Part of the Home Fleet’s 6th Destroyer Flotilla, she was in overall grey at that time and I hope it can be agreed that her grey was certainly not overall 507C/Foreign Stations grey. Compare the tone on the various angles of the TARTAR’s bridge with the D tone areas on the various angles of PoW's bridge.

Attachment:
PoW and Tartar Iceland Aug 1941 A4989.jpg


3. If the D tone area (on the majority of the face of PoW’s bridge) had been 507C it would have been the same colour as the bridge on Mauritius in IWM photo A 6785 – which to my eye it clearly was not.

Attachment:
PoW & Mauritius Singapore A 6785 - Copy.jpg


I suggest try MS4 as D....


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:39 am 
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Hi Richard, good to see you around again :)

Your logic seems sound, and that would make this version by EJ the starting point.

Ok, so the white funnel cap caveat still applies but the rest is there or thereabouts on the Tone D = MS4 premise.

Obviously this changes the overall impression to a more neutral tone, but if anything brings out the blue in the 507A more.

Looking at the bow again (with the draft marks), the reduced contrast between the (suspected) MS3 blotches (Tone C) do look better.


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:01 am 
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... having said that, I wonder if comparative differences with Mauritius' bridge is an illusion?

Here is PoW's cropped and overlaid on top of Mauritius'. They are pretty similar.

Attachment:
PoWMaur.jpg


But Tone D under the catapult also looks a good match to Ripley where you have marked out

Attachment:
PoWRip.jpg


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:05 pm 
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To be honest I cannot see a problem with the Ripley photo or see a major problem.

I am still not convinced of MS4 for tone D at this stage. Nothing conclusive or convincing has been posted to indicate that. From other photos compared to white we can see it is a light colour and not a dark one. I am just not buying into MS4.


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:06 pm 
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SovereignHobbies wrote:
... having said that, I wonder if comparative differences with Mauritius' bridge is an illusion?

Here is PoW's cropped and overlaid on top of Mauritius'. They are pretty similar.

Attachment:
PoWMaur.jpg


But Tone D under the catapult also looks a good match to Ripley where you have marked out

Attachment:
PoWRip.jpg


That is exactly as I see it. It is an illusion and I am still leaning towards 507C.


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:01 am 
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SovereignHobbies wrote:
Here is PoW's cropped and overlaid on top of Mauritius'. They are pretty similar.



Sorry, I get a different answer when I try the same sort of exercise with similarly angled areas of both ships:

Attachment:
PoW Maur compared.png


And also consider this one....

Attachment:
Prince of Wales sca and bow of Mauritius.JPG


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:49 am 
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Sutho wrote:
To be honest I cannot see a problem with the Ripley photo or see a major problem.

I am still not convinced of MS4 for tone D at this stage. Nothing conclusive or convincing has been posted to indicate that. From other photos compared to white we can see it is a light colour and not a dark one. I am just not buying into MS4.


How does it compare with the white on Ripley's bow?

Does this image help you see the bridge front as being a bit darker than 507C?
Attachment:
Prince of Wales sba b.JPG


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:18 am 
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Those photos do not convince me the slightest.

1. They are poor quality
2. They have extreme contrast issues.

When I look at good quality images that were taken with better camera settings and lighting then the shade to me still looks a light colour and not a dark one.

Edit - I have added a photo of HMS Repulse which was painted in black and 507C.


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:02 am 
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dick wrote:

1. Consider the photo at Argentia with RIPLEY alongside PoW’s starboard side. RIPLEY is a North Atlantic escort and her hull has clearly been camouflaged something darker than a light tone Mediterranean grey/507C. Yet the amidships area of tone D below PoW'S catapult looks if anything slightly darker than even the lightest areas on Ripley's hull (other than the remains of the false bow wave and the white-painted bow).
HMS Ripley ex USS Shubrick transferred to the RN in November 1940. If it still had USN paints on it then there is a good chance that the paint could be 5-L light grey in line with US camouflage schemes at the time.




2. A photo (IWM A 4989) was taken at Iceland on the way back from Argentia in August 1941 with Tribal class TARTAR alongside PoW. Part of the Home Fleet’s 6th Destroyer Flotilla, she was in overall grey at that time and I hope it can be agreed that her grey was certainly not overall 507C/Foreign Stations grey. Compare the tone on the various angles of the TARTAR’s bridge with the D tone areas on the various angles of PoW's bridge.
There is a good chance Tartar was painted in 507C on the bridge. Going through all four Raven books the closest I could find to the pattern Tartar wore has it listed as G45 on another Tribal class late war which is what we know 507C became, furthermore the vast majority of destroyers in the Raven series of books had 507C bridge and upper works if not the Western Approaches colours.





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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:44 am 
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dick wrote:
SovereignHobbies wrote:
Here is PoW's cropped and overlaid on top of Mauritius'. They are pretty similar.



Sorry, I get a different answer when I try the same sort of exercise with similarly angled areas of both ships:

Attachment:
PoW Maur compared.png


And also consider this one....

Attachment:
Prince of Wales sca and bow of Mauritius.JPG



Hi Richard, those bridge shots are comparable surely? Both ships are facing the same direction, the KGV class has a flat face forward and the Colony class has a round bridge, but the sector facing the camera is approximately in the same plane as the KGV's bridge forward face.

You've chosen one of the POW's angled faces that's approximately 45 degrees out of plane with the front of Mauritius' bridge where the tones do match the forward face of PoW's.

Or am I missing something?

Best regards,

Jamie

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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:51 am 
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Sutho wrote:
Edit - I have added a photo of HMS Repulse which was painted in black and 507C.


Just a caveat - we've for a memo or letter or something semi-formal from Captain Tennant in 1940 discussing Repulse - he described it as being very dark grey and a medium grey between 507A and 507C, and likened it to one "mentioned" in CB3016/37. We haven't been able to get a copy of that to follow up. I mention this because unless repainted again, Repulse probably wasn't in 507C afterall.

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