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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:04 am 
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It seems we're ok with Tone E being MS4A, and Tone A being MS1.

If Tone D is 507C, the tonal gaps are a bit too big around the bow compared to the photos but it passes the laugh test.

If Tone D is MS4, the contrasts on POW look better. I still think PoW's bridge is the same as Mauritius' bridge - whatever that happens to be.

Tone D could be B6, at the same tonal value as MS4, only bluish not khaki. How saturated a B6 it was is a whole other headache. It's not the design sheet B6 and neither is it the same (suspected) B6 which PRS measured in AD.29. It could be more like the limp, washed out B6 chip at Kew however.

Tone B could be 507A or B5 at lightest, but nothing else because the colour shot shows a bluish hue.

That forces Tone C into MS3, Mountbatten Pink (which is not credible) or equal parts 507A/507C emergency mix grey which is also of dubious credibility because it was expressedly for use when there was not time to apply proper camouflage paints in a proper camouflage pattern. Thus seeing it as part of a proper camouflage pattern would be strange.

Tone D is the problem here. I don't think it's credible that it's anything othet than MS4, an unsaturated mix of B6 or 507C because tonally we've got nowhere to go either side of these.

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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:13 pm 
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SovereignHobbies wrote:
Sutho wrote:
Edit - I have added a photo of HMS Repulse which was painted in black and 507C.


Just a caveat - we've for a memo or letter or something semi-formal from Captain Tennant in 1940 discussing Repulse - he described it as being very dark grey and a medium grey between 507A and 507C, and likened it to one "mentioned" in CB3016/37. We haven't been able to get a copy of that to follow up. I mention this because unless repainted again, Repulse probably wasn't in 507C afterall.


I will add another image of Repulse looking almost white.


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:48 pm 
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I have cropped the new paint samples from the chart provided and put them over this colour slide.

For the record I do not like the new MS1 and prefer the old WEM version better. Something is just not right with it.

The midship section of Prince of Wales is where tone D was and it is down to MS4 and 507C. I have placed both either side.

The bow looks more bluish opposed to midships.

The second photo has the Snyder and Short chip included at the stern below the new version.


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:54 am 
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Sutho wrote:
For the record I do not like the new MS1 and prefer the old WEM version better. Something is just not right with it.


It's the same colour.

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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:54 am 
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SovereignHobbies wrote:
Sutho wrote:
For the record I do not like the new MS1 and prefer the old WEM version better. Something is just not right with it.


It's the same colour.


The second photo in my post above I have cropped the Snyder and Short MS1 and included in below your MS1.


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 3:50 am 
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That's as may be, but RN04 MS1 was one of the few which compared well with the Kew samples and AD.29 data for proposed G5, so it's also one of those that was just renumbered :thumbs_up_1:

A point to note is that near-blacks and near-whites do not look too clever in the RGB255 colourspace model which is required to light up pixels on a visual display screen / monitor.

You'll have to take my word for it that that tin of NARN28 MS1 is literally one of our RN04 tins with the label peeled off and replaced. :thumbs_up_1:

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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 4:58 am 
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SovereignHobbies wrote:
That's as may be, but RN04 MS1 was one of the few which compared well with the Kew samples and AD.29 data for proposed G5, so it's also one of those that was just renumbered :thumbs_up_1:

A point to note is that near-blacks and near-whites do not look too clever in the RGB255 colourspace model which is required to light up pixels on a visual display screen / monitor.

You'll have to take my word for it that that tin of NARN28 MS1 is literally one of our RN04 tins with the label peeled off and replaced. :thumbs_up_1:


Thanks that is good to know. I saw your work with Snyder samples, Kew Samples, Portsmouth Samples and suggested norm and was under the impression that it had been changed like the others. I used a snipping tool to pin the colour from the .pdf file and superimpose on the image above.

None the less I am glad that it is resolved and behind us.

I am happy to go along with MS4 being a possibility which is why I posted the above images but I do not want to go that way until 507C has been conclusively ruled out or it can be ruled out that the ship was not in a blue shade. The MS4 changes the shade entirely from blue to khaki.

I think some considerable progress has been made though and think with pushing it to the limits we will all soon agree.


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:20 am 
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SovereignHobbies wrote:

Hi Richard, those bridge shots are comparable surely? Both ships are facing the same direction, the KGV class has a flat face forward and the Colony class has a round bridge, but the sector facing the camera is approximately in the same plane as the KGV's bridge forward face.

It’s a very small part of a not very high res copy of an on-line photo that we are dealing with there, but you have overlaid the flat face of PoW’s bridge onto the increasingly in shadowed port side of Mauritius’s rounded bridge front so no, to me, they are not approximately in the same plane.
SovereignHobbies wrote:

You've chosen one of the POW's angled faces that's approximately 45 degrees out of plane with the front of Mauritius' bridge where the tones do match the forward face of PoW's.
Or am I missing something?

Yes I have chosen the angled port side of Pow bridge but no I have not used the front of Mauritius’s bridge but the similarly (to PoW) angled port side of Mauritius’s lower bridge superstructure and the
port side of her B turret which is, by chance, trained onto the same bearing as the angled portside of PoW’s bridge

I guess when I look at this tone (and the contrast with the white present) and compare it with all the many, many photos of ships in 507C I have always seen something darker….
Attachment:
Prince of Wales sgh A6786 - Copy.jpg


SovereignHobbies wrote:
It seems we're ok with Tone E being MS4A, and Tone A being MS1.


Yes re A=MS1 but to me E (if a five colour scheme) has always looked like a matt 507C. If there was any MS4A then it would be F. A candidate for F has always been that tricksy diagonal on the hull’s port quarter, but if that ever was MS4A there it looks like it got painted out something darker (507C) fairly soon (or maybe this is how it got left accounting for the flaring so often seen there).


Attachment:
PoW repainting c.jpg


Best wishes


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Last edited by dick on Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:45 am 
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Sutho wrote:
When I look at good quality images that were taken with better camera settings and lighting then the shade to me still looks a light colour and not a dark one.

I am not suggesting a dark tone but a tone darker than 507C/a medium tone.

Sutho wrote:
HMS Ripley ex USS Shubrick transferred to the RN in November 1940. If it still had USN paints on it then there is a good chance that the paint could be 5-L light grey in line with US camouflage schemes at the time.


I think that is somewhat unlikely. Three reasons:

1) If you check her RN service history you will see that she arrives in the UK in December 1940 and undergoes a month-plus refit, then collided with another ship and goes back into dock for couple of weeks of repairs. During the course of the refit she would have been repainted using RN paints, and probably needed further repainting during the repair.

2) Others on this board can advise on USN practice but I believe that ships normally carried small stocks of paint for touch-up purposes, not enough for whole repaints. The RN would have had to have had stocks of 5-L at Devonport with which to paint out the USN hull number and repaint the entire hull and I really don’t think they did have USN paint there then. Why would they?

3) There is this slightly washed-out photo of Ripley in the scheme we see her in beside PoW:

http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/pix1/0526802.jpg

Apart from the white bow and light false bow wave, there is then a light tone on the angled face of the bridge and on the side of the aft deckhouse (both visible more clearly also in the better quality photo alongside PoW), then the medium tone we are interested to compare with PoW that covers most of her hull, then a darker tone on the aft two funnels and a darker tone still on the bridge. To me that she is wearing a four-tone affair shows she has been repainted since her USN days. For what it is worth, based on the four colours worn on another of the 5th Escort Group in 1941, I suggest that the medium tone on Ripley might be MBP and the light tone light MBP.

Sutho wrote:
There is a good chance Tartar was painted in 507C on the bridge. Going through all four Raven books the closest I could find to the pattern Tartar wore has it listed as G45 on another Tribal class late war which is what we know 507C became, furthermore the vast majority of destroyers in the Raven series of books had 507C bridge and upper works if not the Western Approaches colours.


The (lack of) frequency of overall Home Fleet Grey (HFG) schemes being featured in Raven’s booklets is no guide to their frequency of use In service. In a book designed to illustrate the range of camouflage schemes worn by RN ships, page after page of ships in overall HFG would not be a best-seller. (In fact he does not feature a single drawing of a ship in plain overall HFG as worn by most of the Home Fleet most of the time in the period covered by his 1939-41 booklet which is the period we are interested in.)

When you see a dark hull/light upperworks scheme in Raven’s booklet for the 1939-1941 period, check the ship’s service history to see where the ship was serving. In all the cases he features you will find they were on ships serving with an overseas fleet/force/squadron, not the Home Fleet.

In August 1941 Tartar was serving with the Home Fleet as she had been since the outbreak of war. Here she is in September 1940:

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item ... /205135590

and here she is in November 1941:

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item ... /205140574

However in case you might suggest that she might have slipped in a cheeky repaint into dark hull/light upperworks in between the dates of those IWM photos here she is on 23rd August 1941 in UK waters just days after the Iceland photo alongside PoW. As you can see she was not in a dark hull/light upperworks scheme then either.
Attachment:
Tartar h 23 Aug 41 - Copy.jpg


Here is another (low quality, yes) image of PoW arriving at Singapore again showing what appears to me to have been a darker than 507C front of the bridge:
Attachment:
Prince of Wales sb 2 Dec 41.jpg


The various photos taken of PoW arriving at Cape Town are of better quality and are good at showing what I see as a darker than 507C (ie more medium) tone of the front of PoW’s bridge. There is a good one in Nicholson’s book but here is another….
Attachment:
Prince of Wales m CapeTown stbd - Copy.jpg


Best wishes


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:07 am 
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As someone who has had a passion about photography for over 15 years, to me, and sorry if this appears blunt but I am going to get straight to the point, to me those photos where you say they are too dark to be 507C have absolutely zero credibility whatsoever. They are useless. They provide no real insight at all. Absolutely nothing useful can be gained from them. They are dark and if they were taken in dark conditions with a fast shutter speed or film with a sensitivity for bright light then even the lightest colours are going to appear dark. We have all seen this constantly throughout the entire thread and forum of how the tiniest exposure, shutter speed, aperture can make a massive difference.

If those photos are your only evidence to say it is not 507C then to me I am just going to ignore that line or enquiry immediately as it bears no credibility due to the extremely poor image.

I am prepared to accept it may be MS4, that I am prepared to go along with but I am not going to be swayed on very poor photos that I would (if I could) give negative number credibility to.

Sorry if this appears blunt, rude or forceful but I just want to get this out regarding photography. To sum it up I will not be accepting any decisions made based on those photos. We will need better photos. I have already posted two photos above of HMS Repulse presumably in 507C where in both photos the tone or shade appear extremely different.

I would kindly suggest that the photos I am attaching I have more faith in.


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:10 am 
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The problem with judging the scheme with your photos posted is this one. This photo is a major problem as it has tone D almost white at the stern below the main mast and aft funnel yet the fore part of the ship which we know was also tone D is considerably darker than what is aft yet we know from extensive photos that they are the same colour. This is why some photos should not be trusted or even used in the list to determine which colours the ship was painted in.


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:02 pm 
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Hi All,

I'm afraid the problem we have with this is context. From her logs PoW was last painted before she left Scapa Flow for Greenoch. Thus her paint is well worn and faded, what we don't know is how old is the paint on Mauritius.

We don't know the wear on that paint, she's in dock because she was having machinery problems which eventually saved her. Therefore we cannot really compare the tones, with full confidence, we might be able at a stretch to best guess, but to be sure we need to see PoW in the exact same light source with similar age paint with a ship of known camouflage.

The interesting thing about the image Richard posted showing the after hull being painted (from adm 499 i think) is that the crew in the light area seem to be actually painting the darker tone. If this is the primer coat then generally an oil paint was used (ie 507a or 507c dependant on the reflection factor of the paint to be used over the top of it) could this mean we see 507c next to the original less harder wearing matt paint, possibly MS4a?

I could be wrong here, and I'm positive Richard will know for sure, but it's a thought.

Hope this helps rather than hinders,

Best wishes
Cag.


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:06 pm 
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it will be all oil based paint back then.


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:50 am 
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DavidP wrote:
it will be all oil based paint back then.


Actually I believe (and Sean can correct me if I'm mis-remembering here) the MS paints seem to have been oil bound water paints, a sort of precurser to the modern emulsion. They suffered from bad adhesion problems, shrinkage and a tendency to peel off previous layers when overpainted with new layers.

The Pattern 507s were linseed oil paints. The later B&G series paints likewise linseed oil paints.

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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:17 am 
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dick wrote:
Yes re A=MS1 but to me E (if a five colour scheme) has always looked like a matt 507C. If there was any MS4A then it would be F. A candidate for F has always been that tricksy diagonal on the hull’s port quarter, but if that ever was MS4A there it looks like it got painted out something darker (507C) fairly soon (or maybe this is how it got left accounting for the flaring so often seen there).


For some reason the diagonal on the stern always to me appears much lighter than the other regions marked as E.

An MS1/507A/B/MS3/MS4/(MS4a/507C) combination does have a better change of explaining why C/D are so difficult to distinguish on some photographs. Also, with the new color swatches edited in the colour frame

Attachment:
POW_frame.jpg


it takes less imagination to match D to MS4 than 507C... Region D does appear to have a bit of blue in it but the color footage also seems overly blue.

The 2D mockups I made result in a very dark layout that I even called unconvincing at first; perhaps a 3D mockup with the new MS4 may work much better. So I remain (as always) in doubt...


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:48 am 
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Hi All,

Hi DavidP, sorry I didn't explain that too well! As Jamie says the matt MS and B paints were oil/water paints according to the files on record, an early emulsion type. Back then there were quite a few different types of paint, tar based and even wool soap!

They were emulsion types as oil based paints, especially those with enamel, caused a phenomenon known as flash, where the downside of the reflective nature of these paints outweighed their wear properties.

Initially the successors to the MS and B paints, the G and B series (G10, B15 etc), were supplied as samples in this emulsion paint but again due to their wear properties they were replaced with traditional linseed oil paints.

As far as I can recall there are orders that mention the use of traditional oil paints as an undercoat, as there were also emulsion type paints that equated to Home Fleet grey and Foreign Stations grey (507a and 507c basically). I'm sure Richard or Jamie may remember this better.

I'm sure with all the experts here on the forum even a best guess will result in us being closer to the PoW scheme and help us identify the many other schemes too!

Unfortunately my uncle did not speak too much about his service on PoW, I recall making the Tamiya model in that strange green camo seen on the box art and he didn't recognise it as PoW at all. His only comments regarding her paint scheme were, that she was painted to look like a Mediterranean cruiser, which may be a false memory or jolly Jack rumour, and that whilst 'painting ship' he was once brought before the captain by the 'jimmy the one' for climbing up the anchor chain and out through the hawse in an attempt to beat his mates to the rum ration. Captain Leach let him off with a "dont do it again", and I think the first officer had a lot of potatoes that required peeling!

Best wishes
Cag.


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:36 am 
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EJFoeth wrote:
dick wrote:
Yes re A=MS1 but to me E (if a five colour scheme) has always looked like a matt 507C. If there was any MS4A then it would be F. A candidate for F has always been that tricksy diagonal on the hull’s port quarter, but if that ever was MS4A there it looks like it got painted out something darker (507C) fairly soon (or maybe this is how it got left accounting for the flaring so often seen there).


For some reason the diagonal on the stern always to me appears much lighter than the other regions marked as E.

An MS1/507A/B/MS3/MS4/(MS4a/507C) combination does have a better change of explaining why C/D are so difficult to distinguish on some photographs. Also, with the new color swatches edited in the colour frame

Attachment:
POW_frame.jpg


it takes less imagination to match D to MS4 than 507C... Region D does appear to have a bit of blue in it but the color footage also seems overly blue.

The 2D mockups I made result in a very dark layout that I even called unconvincing at first; perhaps a 3D mockup with the new MS4 may work much better. So I remain (as always) in doubt...


I have done another photoshop edit. I gave the image more cyan and less red and more blue and less yellow. At the moment it matches almost MS4. If I double the values of what I increased the two colours by it would match 507C but looks unrealistic. I think MS4 is credible.


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:45 am 
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Can you please try 507C against the front of the bridge, just below the protruding windbreakers? Just above where the band of Tone A visible on the side of the bridge superstructure? It looks bluish and thus should either be 507C or B6.

With the colour balance changes you have made, the Tone B panel immediately above your 507A swatch is starting to look like B5 rather than 507A.

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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:10 pm 
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I have done a quick add with 507C some B5 patches and B6.

I am going to try a few things in Adobe Lightroom when I get the chance and try and dehaze it, saturate it more and bring out the colours. The aft section had always looked distinctively blueish to me where I put the 507A and 507B but have put B5 in also. I put B6 at the bow.

If those colours were on the ship then it may well have faded considerably.


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:24 pm 
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This file here I edited in Adobe Lightroom. For this one I used the white balance needle and did a auto white balance based on the white stripe at the top of the funnel to attain a white balance solution for the image. I then did and auto tone and enhanced the clarity vibrance and saturation slightly and did a dehaze. This is the result.

I have a few more edits I want to do with a auto white balance based on other areas.


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