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 Post subject: Prince of Wales May 1941
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:22 pm 
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I'm about to begin work on the Flyhawk 1/700 Prince of Wales - the Denmark Strait edition. I've found a lot of reference material regarding painting the ship in the December '41 "as sunk" camo, but very little on the May '41 painting. The hull & superstructure seem pretty straightforward my question(s) are on the decks.

Was the main deck natural wood at this time, or painted/satined? And if so what color?

Were any of the decks covered in corticine? I've built an HMS Hood and some of her decks were but I'm not sure if that was common in the Royal Navy.

The kit provides good instructions for painting all of the ship except the decks. All of the books I've found so far only cover the ship during her time in the Pacific, not the North Atlantic.

Thanks for any/all assistance.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:32 am 
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I think the wood decks were likely darkened while under construction for concealment in the shipyard.
She was rushed into service.
I've never heard of corticine being used on any of her decks.
Good luck!
John


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 1:32 pm 
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SovereignHobbies
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Location: Aberdeenshire, Scotland, UK
In May 1941 she was freshly painted in overall Home Fleet Grey (507A, or dockyard equivalent matt finish paint) and according to the ship's log her wooden decks had been freshly darkened.

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http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 1:46 pm 
Thank you both for your replies. So if I were to paint her in say 507B or 507C (for scale effect) that would be correct? For the decks I’ll use a gray wash to simulate the darkened wood.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:02 am 
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SovereignHobbies
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Location: Aberdeenshire, Scotland, UK
"Scale effect" is a divisive subject but I'll remain objective in my response.

507C was a Light Grey giving a very obvious and distinct light impression. In any scale an accurate 507C will wholly fail to give an impression of Home Fleet Grey.

As to 507B - it wasn't "medium grey". Primary source documentation traces its existence back to the First World War where it DID start as a discreet colour from 507A but it survived WW1 and 507A did not. 507B would evolve through the 1920s and 30s gaining blue pigment and dark grey enamel to make it hardier and longer lasting. Enamel was expensive and made the paint somewhat glossy, and in 1939 the nomenclature "507A" was resurrected with identical description and ingredients as 507B except the enamel was omitted. 507B was effectively discontinued in 1940 when enamel use was ordered to be suspended.

The point of the above is that 507B did exist but it wasn't what you think it was. Unfortunately this mistake has been repeated and reprinted ad nauseum in many books so it will take a long time to kill it off and replace the general understanding with the true one.

The impression of Home Fleet Grey wad dark. If you're used to Snyder & Short's chips or those model paint brands which copied them then you are correct to shy away from using the 507A - it's too dark at circa 8% Light Reflectance Value versus a documented 10-13%. This is enough to make it look wrong on a model. The "507B" measures out at 20% which is much, much too light to give an impression of Home Fleet Grey in the common scales. If building in 1/2400 or something miniscule lile that it might look ok.

There are some selected relevant things here you might find interesting. In particular our little PDF paper on the Admiralty Pattern 507s will provide more information on the above and shows objective comparisons between the Snyder & Short chips and primary source documentation uncovered since. Having instrumentation that can be hand carried is a step forward in technology since too which eliminates the human eye margin for error.

https://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk/pages/british-royal-navy-colour-schemes

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James Duff
Sovereign Hobbies Ltd
http://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk

Current build:
HMS Imperial D09 1/350
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 6:50 am 
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Wow, there's a lot more to this then I ever realized. I'm new to model ship-building (prior to that I built armor & was a model railroader) so I always just followed the kit directions regarding paint choices (usually Tamiya). My somewhat limited knowledge of ship building comes from Reddit & YouTube videos and the David Griffith book "Modeling Ships from Kits" - his book is where I first heard of scale effect. I first started looking into the paint process a couple months back when building HMS Hood.

I picked up the Lifecolors and AK Interactive RN paint collections so that's where I'm getting my values for the 507 colors. In both of those lines 507A, B, and C are represented as distinctly different colors and thus my confusion. So if 507A is too dark (at 1/700) and C is too light - where does that leave 'Home Fleet Gray'? The kit calls for, if I recall, XF24 Dark Gray from Tamiya for the hull and the superstructure would that be close. I guess I can test various grays against the paint samples in your documentation.

I did check out your paint line but (unfortunately) there doesn't appear to be anyone in the US who has it in stock except for some of the Western Approaches colors.

Thanks for the reply and the links to the research, certainly a good bit to digest. I may put the Prince of Wales aside for a bit until I can get this all sorted out.

-Joe


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:01 am 
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My understanding of the Colorcoat or Sovereign paints availability in the US : Only the older stock is available to be purchased on the internet. Noone seems to offer the revised colors.
I already have plenty of the old colors.
I don't think it matters to people anyway.
John


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 4:51 am 
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SovereignHobbies wrote:
In May 1941 she was freshly painted in overall Home Fleet Grey (507A, or dockyard equivalent matt finish paint) and according to the ship's log her wooden decks had been freshly darkened.


When you say "freshly darkened" do you mean stained darker wood color or painted dark grey like the turret tops etc? Building one now also and need to clear this bit up. Basically darker grey than 507A then?

Using this one as a guide:


PS. Sorry to hijack thread, didnt wanna create same one. Building my Denmark strait 1941 PoW


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:14 am 
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Prior to the Denmart Straight battle the darkened top was already removed; tiny remnants in nooks and crannies (that a dark wash could capture) remain visible on close ups.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 11:26 am 
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EJFoeth wrote:
Prior to the Denmart Straight battle the darkened top was already removed; tiny remnants in nooks and crannies (that a dark wash could capture) remain visible on close ups.


Sorry what do you refer to when you say "darkened top was already removed"? Are you saying decks were back to natural color but some dark wash will be useful here and there?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:09 pm 
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Hi Pascal,

That's just what the ship's log says. Personally I would interpret that to mean a dark stain on the wooden decks.

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James Duff
Sovereign Hobbies Ltd
http://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk

Current build:
HMS Imperial D09 1/350
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2020 6:28 am 
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SovereignHobbies wrote:
Hi Pascal,

That's just what the ship's log says. Personally I would interpret that to mean a dark stain on the wooden decks.


Gotcha. Will you have more "recommended" painting diagram guides on your you site for PoW?

Would be nice to see how you would display / interpret these things. Im kind of unsure how to make decks look darker with grey, not brown. a black wash will result in sharp lines along the deck planking, only but nothing else. Plus I recall someone saying that the dark wash was REMOVED for the Denmark strait battle. Go figure.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2020 3:38 am 
Pascalemod,

Concerning the colour of the wood cladding of the decks in PoW: you may like to have a look at Page 7 of the "R" Class Battleship Fans topic particularly the messages from 508 Medway and on. I may be wrong but whatever was applied may not have been DELIBERATELY scrubbed off. Much may have been removed by the frequent deck scrubbing that was the routine of every-day life in a British battleship at the time. Whatever the case, a model-maker is confronted with the task of attempting to replicate the appearance of what was left. Only off-model experiments around the theme of "scrubbed, weathered wood after it had been stained black" may provide an answer.


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