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PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 2:37 pm 
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Location: Kyiv, Ukraine
Richard, hi!

What kind of "tech information" about Byuinyi class (they were also called Nevki (Невки) as they were built at Nevskiy shipyard at St.Petersburg at the river of Neva which you may know) are your looking for? I'll try to find some although I never investigated these ships being fascinated by its predecessors - Sokol type (Steregyuschiy).

Cheers,

Yevgeniy


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 3:04 pm 
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Hi Yevgeniy
I am looking for things like length overall , beam , engines .speed ,ect .If the plans are right it was 205'2" length overall including the boom at the bow but as you know plans aren't allways accurate .

Thank you for your help
Richard

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 3:41 pm 
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Richard,

Buynyy class had following characteristics (my summary from text of Russian book (there is no table in the book, data are scattered around - here is a link on US shop http://www.biblio-globus.us/description ... no=8799196 - I do not know the shop and it is not an ad - just for you to see the cover of the book, there is "English" button in upper right angle of the site)
- Length: 64,00 meters between perpendiculars as they say
- Beam: 6,4 meters
- Draught: 1,78 meters not including keel (I do not understand what is means, note by Yevgeniy :smallsmile: ) wiki says draught is 2,82 m) - I did not investigate which is right, I think you can calculate it from your plans taking that 64,00 is the correct length between the perpendiculars
- Displacement: 410 tons (full). It is not clear about displacement in the text. It is said that the project (and task to Yarrow shipyard which made the design) was 350 tons but Yarrow used plans of Japanese destroyer with displacement of 410 tons). Text does not say clearly what was displacement ob Byinyi. If this may lead to problems (say you make a model in 1:48 of larger :smallsmile: I can ask on Russian forums, for 1:100 I think 0,350-0,410 kg for model is an acceptable range :smallsmile: )
- Propulsion: 2 vertical machines with total of 6000 h.p.
- Speed: 26 knots (actual)
- thickness of hull (plating): 4-5 mm

Here is Russian wiki on the subject (copy all text to your browser including Russian letters - it is probably because of them forum does not create a direct link):
Code:
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Миноносцы_типа_«Буйный»
- data is a little different from those above e.g. length is said to be 64,1 meter, horsepowers - 5700, draught - 2,8 meters (!) and so on. I guess you can googletranslate wiki

There were several series of Buinyi type (1st series (Byinyi, Bodnyi, etc.) 2d series. Gromkiy, Groznyi, etc. and 3d series - all series with some differences).

Feel free to ask if you need more info. It is late evening here in Ukraine so I'll leave forum now for 1 hour modeling (working on wooden grids for galeon) before sleep :smallsmile:

Cheers,

Yevgeniy


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 5:25 pm 
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Thank you Yevgeniy
You have answered all I needed to know .

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 6:00 pm 
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Hi all

I next turned my attention to the two 88mm guns. I had already found working drawings for these weapons, as fitted in 1914, so I scaled them to 1/48th and then set about breaking the gun down into separate “model making” components.

Incidentally to help understand and interpret the plans, I was lucky in finding pictures of an original 88mm gun, removed from U19, and preserved in Ireland.

I intended making a mould and casting the parts to make up the guns (and other deck fittings), so a master for each component was made up from pattern making material (Conform) or plastic.

These were compared to the drawings, and when I was happy with each component it was stuck to a base. Flat spray primer (red again) gave me a good surface finish which also held the release agent (petroleum jelly) well. I found it much easier to see which area had been coated with the release agent as the flat finish turned shiny.

The base with the components stuck to it was walled in, with thin plastic card, and this mould was then filled with RTV silicon casting rubber. This takes about 6 hours to cure. I had previously de-gassed the RTV silicon in a vacuum chamber.

The thin plastic walls were broken open and the mould gently pulled off the master.
This mould was then used to cast the parts in epoxy casting resin and they came out arranged on a casting base.

More about this in the next post.


Attachments:
File comment: 88mm gun from U19 preserved in Ireland. Some of the smaller fittings are missing.
0110.jpg
0110.jpg [ 186.63 KiB | Viewed 737 times ]
File comment: Moulds for casting the parts to make various deck fittings, including guns, anchors, steam capstan and dinghy interior.
0111.JPG
0111.JPG [ 179.95 KiB | Viewed 737 times ]
File comment: The master for making the gun component mould. Each part was modelled in plastic before being mounted on the base.
0112.JPG
0112.JPG [ 178.33 KiB | Viewed 737 times ]
File comment: The master is finished in spray primer which holds the mould release agent well. It will be fitted with a plastic wall to hold the RTV silicon.
0113.JPG
0113.JPG [ 182.37 KiB | Viewed 737 times ]
File comment: The assembled 88mm gun. The barrel and some components are made of brass. The parts were carefully removed from the casting base with a jewellers saw before being assembled.
0115.jpg
0115.jpg [ 134.76 KiB | Viewed 737 times ]
File comment: The master and RTV silicon mould for the 88mm gun.
0114.JPG
0114.JPG [ 130.32 KiB | Viewed 711 times ]

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 4:26 pm 
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Hi all

It was now time to check what the 88 mm gun looked like on the model. Of course the huge advantage of casting fittings like this is that that the second gun (in the stern of this vessel) was so much easier to manufacture, and I could guarantee it being identical to the first.

As my “library” of cast resin fittings expanded, other advantages became apparent. As I was building all my models in the same scale, I could utilise standard fittings a second or third time. Sometimes it was easy to modify slightly, some fittings, to make them correct for a second model. Navigation lights on V105 for example, merely needed the reflector shields altering in size from those fitted to HMS Velox.

As I said in the previous post the resin cast parts are manufactured on a base. I discovered that a fine fret saw blade neatly followed the flat surface of the base and sliced off even the smallest of parts with practically no waste. Gently rubbing them along a sheet of fine abrasive (glued to a flat board) gave a good finish to the lower surface.

The pictures show the resin cast anchor handling crane, mounted on the fore deck of V105, as an example of the parts and assembly technique.


Attachments:
File comment: The assembled gun in position on the model.
0116.JPG
0116.JPG [ 168.77 KiB | Viewed 704 times ]
File comment: The anchor handling crane. The components of this are removed from their base with a fine fret saw blade.
0117.JPG
0117.JPG [ 141.64 KiB | Viewed 704 times ]
File comment: The anchor handling crane assembled next to the initial resin casting.
0118.JPG
0118.JPG [ 186.15 KiB | Viewed 704 times ]

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:28 pm 
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Hi all


I forgot to include a picture of the finished fore-deck with the last post. I have included one here so that you can see the completed and installed 88mm gun, anchors, capstan and anchor hoist/crane.

The next piece of detail to be dealt with was the compass binnacle/bandstand mount, amidships. The basic lattice framework was again from my printed plastic sheet, with the cross bracing added using nylon mono filament.

The circular platform was a little flimsy and too flexible in 1.5mm plastic card alone, so I stuck it, and the raised aft deck over the tiller, to some 0.5mm plywood for additional strength.

The steps, stanchions and voice pipe (arrowed) were added, the latter made from (lead wire). This whole unit was mounted on a plastic card base which could be lifted off. This covered and hid the small countersunk bolt, which holds the rear of the main removable deck section in place. It also helped disguise the joint in the deck.

The last picture shows this in place. The more observant and knowledgeable of you will notice that the ventilator cowls are completely the wrong shape! Their mouths should be a sort of inverted tear drop. This detail showed up in subsequent research and vac formed replacements are currently being manufactured to correct this.


Attachments:
File comment: The gun, anchors, capstan and anchor hoist in place on the completed fore-deck.
0118(1).JPG
0118(1).JPG [ 193.37 KiB | Viewed 668 times ]
File comment: These plastic card fittings were fixed to 0.5mm ply for added strength.
0119(1).JPG
0119(1).JPG [ 125.17 KiB | Viewed 668 times ]
File comment: The lattice frame work of the compass mount was from the printed plastic card sheet, with cross braces added.
0119.JPG
0119.JPG [ 183.17 KiB | Viewed 668 times ]
File comment: The bandstand mount was fitted to a plastic card base. The voice pipes were added from lead wire.
0120.JPG
0120.JPG [ 191.17 KiB | Viewed 668 times ]
File comment: The stanchions and other detail were added. The voice pipes can be seen.
0121.JPG
0121.JPG [ 199.6 KiB | Viewed 668 times ]
File comment: The finished item straddles the joint in the deck. The WRONG shaped vent cowls can be seen before they are replaced! The compass binnacle is also a cast resin fitting.
0122.JPG
0122.JPG [ 151.53 KiB | Viewed 668 times ]

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:40 pm 
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Hi all


Before manufacturing and installing the torpedo tubes I concentrated on some of the smaller, surface mounted deck detail. The torpedo tube races (sometimes called racers) were made from square section aluminium strip. This was formed around a paint tin of approximately the correct diameter, matched to the plans and trimmed to length before being gently bent to match the deck camber. CA glue was used to fix it in place.

The small white circles represent the glazed deck lights. These were punched out of self adhesive aluminium foil, embossed slightly and are practically flush with the deck.

The arrows indicate the positions of the two countersunk bolts which hold down the removable deck section.

One of the man holes was raised higher than the others to clear the boiler room sky light and on the model this was reproduced by adding a length of (blue) plastic tube to a cast resin man hole.

The positions for a lot of the deck detail have been transferred from the plans and pencilled onto the deck.

The triangular shapes at the deck edge are the mounting positions for the Maxim machine guns.

The hole (with a black collar) is the position for the aft mast.


Attachments:
File comment: The forward torpedo tube positions. The deck races are now installed.
0123.JPG
0123.JPG [ 198.1 KiB | Viewed 626 times ]
File comment: The midships torpedo tube position.
0124.JPG
0124.JPG [ 175.13 KiB | Viewed 626 times ]
File comment: The location positions for much of the deck detail have been transferred from the plans and pencilled in.
0125.JPG
0125.JPG [ 173.98 KiB | Viewed 626 times ]

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 5:05 am 
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The compas mount came out great .I found plans of the V170 at the http://dreadnoughtproject.org/tfs/index.php/Main_Page .
They are nice looking boats .

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 5:38 am 
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Richard

This "Dreadnought Project" web site is very good. A great free resource (and lets face it, little is free these day) giving access to original construction drawing for some very interesting vessels. One or two are a little faint but with care they could be used to re-draw "model makers plans". They are also invaluable for detailing deck fittings for contemporary vessels.

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Last edited by PICKETBOAT on Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 5:51 am 
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Hi all


Here are some more pictures of the mid ship and aft decks, at approximately the same stage. The smaller, aft removable deck section can just be seen. At this point the second 88mm gun has not been installed, but it will sit on top of this removable section. This is not secured with fasteners, as it sits on a register and has a slightly deeper lip so is unlikely to get knocked or blown off while sailing. Only this section is removed at the waterside, to gain access to power switches.

The mid ship compass on its bandstand mount can be seen. Indicated are the two chocks for securing one of the ships dinghy’s on its edge. This was apparently an alternative storage position probably, to free up deck space.

The tiller arrangements can be seen, as the raised deck section covering this has not been installed in this picture.

The next post should include detail of the design and manufacture of the rudder itself.


Attachments:
File comment: The stern showing the tiller arrangements.
00126.JPG
00126.JPG [ 152.51 KiB | Viewed 608 times ]
File comment: Amid ships deck detail.
0127.JPG
0127.JPG [ 147.75 KiB | Viewed 608 times ]
File comment: The covers over the steering cables and rods were made from plastic card.
0128.JPG
0128.JPG [ 191.5 KiB | Viewed 608 times ]

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:46 am 
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Really excellent resin casting-at-home!

Real eye-opener in quality and detail--how can you bear to put it in the water...? !!!??


:cool_2:

JIM B

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 8:01 am 
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Jim

Thanks for the compliments.

I have no problems about sailing my models (I kind of consider them "caged animals" if they don't get to go on the water) I always build a good transportation/storage box as any damage occurs getting them too and from the sailing water, more often than not getting them in or out of the car.

I'd say the fun ratio is about 60% fun in the build, 20% fun in the sailing and 20% in the research.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:41 am 
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Hi all

The rudder on these vessels was hung over the stern, the same arrangement as on my previous model HMS Velox. By a great piece of luck the shape of the rudder fitted to V105 was almost identical.

As I had decided to cast the rudder for HMS Velox in epoxy resin, I was able to use the same mould, and cast another for this model, modifying the profile slightly to match the plans for the German torpedo boat.

The same casting process previously talked about for producing other fittings was again employed, with RTV silicon being poured around a master of the rudder. The master was shaped to an aerofoil cross section and plate lines were added again using aluminium foil.

The finished silicon mould was mounted in a plastic card frame to support an M3 stainless steel shaft. This also formed a strengthening armature when encapsulated within the resin.

The resin was poured into the mould with a second (arrowed) hole allowing trapped air to escape.

After trimming off the casting sprue and correcting the profile to fit the German vessel, the rudders stainless shaft had a flat face filed onto one side, while the aluminium tiller had a corresponding “D” shaped hole cut into it. Two stainless M3 nuts (one above and one below the tiller) locked the two components together. The top M3 nut is seen on the model but photograph of contemporary vessels show HUGE locking nuts performing the same task, so I considered it scale detail.

It was difficult to get the rudder fulcrum correct, so the fitted rudder was quite “sloppy in its movement. I did not want to overload the servo or the linkages.

A clear plastic rudder extension, in the photographs, slots over the rudder when the model is rigged for sailing. The rudder, on its own, gives a “scale turning circle” i.e. BIG! Not a problem on a large sailing water, but I wanted a bit more control to sail safely alongside other vessels on more restricted sailing waters.


Attachments:
File comment: The silicon mould for the rudder. The stainless shaft is held in position while the casting process is carried out.
0129.JPG
0129.JPG [ 148.8 KiB | Viewed 537 times ]
File comment: Here is the rudder installed on the nearly completed model. The top locking nut for the tiller can just be seen.
0130.JPG
0130.JPG [ 174.15 KiB | Viewed 537 times ]
File comment: Another profile shot of the rudder.
0131.JPG
0131.JPG [ 133.83 KiB | Viewed 537 times ]
File comment: Here is the cast rudder with its transparent extension slipped into place.
0132.JPG
0132.JPG [ 180.75 KiB | Viewed 537 times ]
File comment: The rudder extension made from clear acrylic. The two horizontal strips are thinner more flexible plastic which grip the rudder.
0133.JPG
0133.JPG [ 194.5 KiB | Viewed 537 times ]

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 9:14 am 
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Hi all

RUDDER ARRANGEMENTS

I thought I might include a few thoughts about the rudder arrangements on this and similar vessels.

I decided to fit the transparent rudder extension to improve control and reduce the turning circle. This was as a result of having gained experience of using rudder extensions on working scale sailing models. V105 sails fine without the rudder extension, performing beautiful, graceful, scale turns but allowing insufficient control to avoid other models getting unexpectedly in ones path.

I could of course have fitted two ESCs (speed controllers) and possibly a mixer, to use prop thrust to aid steering. Limited hull space and buoyancy ruled this out, plus I wanted to keep everything as simple as possible.

The prototypes of both this vessel and my previous model HMS Velox were fitted with retractable bow rudders, and I did consider fitting these to improve control. In the end I thought that the advantages would be outweighed by the possible problems. Having said that, my next build (the 1890 Russian Torpedo Cruiser Kazarski) has only one screw and I have decided to fit a bow rudder to this model as an experiment. The image shows the normal bow rudder arrangement, in this case on an earlier German vessel and on this plan the rudder is depicted in the retracted position.

I plan to fit a second servo near the bows connected to the main rudder channel with a “Y” lead. The bow rudder will not be retractable but will be removable. Its movement will be restricted to about 15 degrees to either port or starboard.

I would be pleased to hear from any other modellers who have first hand experience of both installing and using bow rudders on working models.


Attachments:
File comment: Normal bow rudder arrangements.
0134.jpg
0134.jpg [ 162.33 KiB | Viewed 497 times ]

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 9:44 am 
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Hi Steve,

Strangely, I was thinking about bow rudders recently if I model of either an Elan or Chamois class aviso drageur. Both show bow rudders of the blueprints, but, at least the Chamois class, didn't have them fitted. The rudders did not extend but sat in a sort of 'hole' in the hull right up by the bow and they were quite large.

I thought the fitting of them would be an interesting exercise, but they would be more like a big bow thruster hole, with a rudder extending down into it. The truning angle would need to be quite large as so that the 'tail' of the rudder came far enough out of its recess to deflect waterflow.

I do remember that many, many years ago due to the dreadful turning circle of the old 48th scale Clyde paddlers they fitted extra large rudders in clear perspex but they were fixed rather than removable like yours, which is a great idea.

If you want I can cut and paste some extracts from the prints and post them up when I get home.

All the best
Sandy


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:20 pm 
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Sandy

Yes, pictures please, as I'm a bit intrigued by this.

I thought I could make the bow rudder with a brass shaft. This would push up, into a brass tube lined with a length of silicon pipe. The brass tube would be attached via a linkage to the servo. Obviously each time the bow rudder was installed, I would have to check it was aligned and synchronised with the stern rudder by turning it manually within the silicon pipe. Removing it for transportation would reduce the chance of it getting knocked off. Grounding would however be a problem in very shallow water.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:55 pm 
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Here you go:-

Image

Image


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:38 am 
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Sandy

Very interesting. A little less prone to getting damaged with it being recessed into the hull. I would certainly model it as a working function. Some experimentation would be needed to work out the limit of the movement. I plan to site the servo for the bow rudder well back in the hull connecting it with a long connecting rod to the rudder mechanism hidden (and once installed inaccessibly) up in the bows.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:08 pm 
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Hi all

The deck detailing continued.

I had worried about the two steel lattice-work supports for the bridge wings. I knew the joint of the lift-off section of the deck would be beneath them, so the dilemma was, should they be attached to the hull or to the lift off section? In the end I decided to reinforce them and attach them to the hull.

The picture shows the model, still lacking much deck detail and in red primer. The lattice-work bridge wing support, so much a feature of many German destroyers of the period, are arrowed.

They were printed out on the 1.5mm plastic card sheet, so I carefully cut them out and glued a bent brass wire (1.5mm diameter) to their reverse edge. This in turn was inserted into two holes in the deck and glued in place. As both supports were now quite solid I was able to slide the removable deck section into place, with the bridge wings sitting on top of, but not glued to the supports.

Two small crane type hoists were situated on the deck amid ships, port and starboard. These were used to hoist torpedo re-loads on board. The re loads would have been lowered onto a small trolley which ran on the rails along the deck. These two cranes would probably have lent themselves to being etched in brass but I do not have access to this equipment so fabricated them from wire and off cuts.

The navigation lights are resin castings, like the anchor crane, which was covered in more detail in a previous post. These have been painted prior to fitting.


Attachments:
File comment: The lattice work supports for the bridge wings remain fixed to the deck while the bridge and boiler room roof lift off.
072.JPG
072.JPG [ 95.37 KiB | Viewed 420 times ]
File comment: The lattice work supports are reinforced on their reverse.
070.JPG
070.JPG [ 123.02 KiB | Viewed 420 times ]
File comment: The two torpedo lifting cranes were fabricated from wire and off cuts.
071.JPG
071.JPG [ 161.42 KiB | Viewed 420 times ]
File comment: The navigation lights and anchor crane are cast resin fittings. Here they are painted ready for installation.
082.JPG
082.JPG [ 162.25 KiB | Viewed 420 times ]

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