Calling all Illustrious-class & Implacable-class (WW2) fans

[iangazeley]

White for the deck length numbers, definitely, but in photographs with aircraft present, the centre line looks a similar tone to the yellow concentric of the fuselage roundel and different from the deck length markings. On the basis of this I would say yellow for the centre line. My doubt is that with ortho film, yellow appears dark and would disappear from view (as is the case in some photos of Ark Royal). I've yet to find a photo of Illustrious where the centre line is not visible, which might suggest white is the appropriate colour.

[cropredy]

Thanks Ian! I'll relook at my Illustrious photos to see if I can detect that white vs yellow.

FWIW, the center line stripe on the HMS Indomitable model at FAA Museum in Yeovil also shows white.

[Quaestor]

For anyone else trying to determine (as I am) Victorious' flight deck colors while in the South Pacific, here's a site I just found which pulls together previously seen photos of "Robin's" flight deck plus a couple I've not seen before:
http://vova-modelist.livejournal.com/61045.html
Photo 6 is especially good.
Alan Raven's RN camo 1943-1944 book has a drawing of Victorious' flight deck pattern at the time; unfortunately it barely resembles photo 6. Raven states that "the colours ... are unknown to the author, although it is almost certain that Admiralty colours were used." Hold that thought about Admiralty colors.
Raven's fourth RN book, "supplemental", has a drawing of Furious' flight deck in 1943, in a pattern of "medium green, light green and very light grey". That being the same year that Victorious was detached to the USN, is it too far a stretch to think that the same colors might have been used on her flight deck?
I'd welcome any thoughts on this subject; even better, any newly-discovered information (Raven's books being over 10 years old now).

[Vlad]

Does anybody know of, or have, some drawings of Illustrious and Indomitable? I want to understand the differences between the two ships with a view to a future semi-scratch or kitbash of the latter (assuming there are no rumours of a kit, one can hope...). I'm not looking to buy detailed plans, I just want some external general arrangement drawings that are actually to scale rather than the odd sketches that crop up in internet searches.

[Haijun watcher]

EDIT: Photos DELETED by poster since Shipbucket's fair use agreement does not allow manipulation or alteration of their images.

[Timmy C]

The question is, of course, how do you know if those drawings are accurate? Who drew them, and what sources did they use?

[Dick J]

There are certainly accuracy issues with these drawings. Indomitable was ordered as part of the Illustrious class, but was heavily modified. By essentially adding 6 feet to the top of the hull and rearranging internally, a second half-hangar was added. But part of the cost was making the hangar shorter fore-and-aft. This should show in the locations of the 4.5" guns. On Indom, the forward set was moved aft, making it slightly closer to the bridge than on Illustrious. Similarly the after 4.5's were moved forward, made more visible externally because the row of openings for the quarterdeck was longer on Indom than on the Illustrious. Neither change is apparent in this set of drawings. The forward elevator on Indom was wider than on Illustrious, and wider than Indom's own after elevator - a change made to allow navalized Hurricanes and Spitfires to be operated. The boat stowage aft also changed. Note the recesses for 4 boats. The forward set, separated by the handling cranes, was a fixed distance below the flightdeck, the same on both Indom and Illustrious. But the after set was a fixed distance above the waterline. Externally, this shows in that all 4 boats should be on the same level on Illustrious while on Indom, the forward pair should be about 6' higher than the after pair due to Indom's greater hull depth. A less obvious difference was that Indom had MK-V AA directors while the earlier trio all had MK-IV's. All of these differences resulted in slight variations in the way the hull joined the flightdeck, so you either need official plans or lots of photos - OR BOTH!

[Vlad]

Thanks guys,

I am aware of the shipbucket drawings but I have dismissed them since they fail to capture the main feature of Indomitable, the taller hull. I am aware of the 6 foot increase but really what I was after were details of where this increase was, how much of the hull was the same and what was different. I think Dick has mostly answered the things I was interested in. I do have quite a few photos of the ship, but I wanted a better frame of reference to help me place items and opening etc. This has made me realise that a conversion from an Illustrious kit would be a mammoth task, but that I probably have enough information now to do one to a reasonable "eyeball" accuracy in 1/700.

I assume that the different heights of the aft boat storage areas was the same port and starboard. What about the other openings along the hull side? It seems from the pictures that most if not all maintained the same distance from the waterline as on Illustrious, is this interpretation correct? And what about the anchor chain handling area with its corresponding openings at the bow? Fixed distance from the waterline or from the flight deck?

I have managed to find a good drawing of Implacable. Would I be able to use the elevator sizes and spacing or the position of the 4.5" guns on Implacable as a reference for Indomitable?

[Haijun watcher]

My apologies for hastily posting these pictures and not taking the original sketcher's sources into account. I've deleted them from above.

Here is the source link for the two pictures, with no sources indicated by whoever drew them.

Shipbucket Forum: HMS Formidable

[iangazeley]

I got quite a long way with an Indomitable conversion from the Heller 1/400 Illustrious. I used the AOTS Victorious plans in conjunction with a large number of photographs (I got copies of all the useful ones I could find at the IWM and FAAM and from two photo-albums taken by Indomitable crew members that I own) plus a series of photographs that I took of the 1/48th scale builders model at the FAAM. The latter proved the most useful source.

Here's the work just started. As you can see, the hull needed a lot of modification:






And after basic paint job and detailing:







It has a complete paint job now and is sitting in a case waiting for a seascape, all armament and masts, but is mainly stalled by the chore of building Sea Hurricanes, as it is a Pedestal scheme (from WEM Fulmars heavily modified).

Somewhere about ten years ago there is a WiP on this with more photos.

[Vlad]

Hi Ian,

Thanks, that's exactly the kind of thing I needed to see I did stumble across some pictures of your build before but not proper in-progress shots. If you find your old thread before I do let me know.

[Graham Boak]

Gee thanks Ian, what excuse have I now for not returning to my Aosima conversion? (Apart from the rest of the stash.)

[iangazeley]

This thread has prompted me to take the bubble wrap off and open the case for about the first time in five years:





Quite a bit more to do than I remember, but I really should finish it. It might save time by having Martlets on deck and the two completed Sea Hurricanes on outriggers.

[Pieter]

-> Vlad
The armoured carriers website (www.armouredcarriers.com) has damage reports online for all carrier of the class using what seems to be official drawings as the baseline for these reports. They may help you in (scratch?) building an accurate Indomitable.

[Vlad]

Excellent website, thank you Pieter

[Haijun watcher]

Has anyone here built the new tool Aoshima Illustrious kit? I've only found a review for the old tool one on our site.

Just wondering how much of an improvement, if any, the new kit will have, since it's starting to become more common on Ebay, such as in this listing.

[tjstoneman]

Contrary to what has been written on some other sites, the recently-released Aoshima ILLUSTRIOUS appears to be a completely new moulding. The style of construction is different:
The old version had a one-piece waterline hull, with shallow boat-bays and berthing bays and anchors moulded onto the hull, a single quarterdeck piece (with oddly depicted blanks instead of openings between the upright sections of the ship's side), no foc's'le deck, each deck of the island as a separate piece, one-piece cranes, very basic aircraft, 2pdr pompoms and ship's boats.
The new version has separate port and starboard side hull pieces, with properly-indented boat-bays and berthing bays (although the sections behind each upright are, incorrectly, solid), separate foc's'le and quarterdeck, each with a separate deckhead to cover it (although the foc's'le does not extend right to the bow, as it should), separate anchors, a much better-depicted island, two-piece cranes and better (but not ideal) boats and pompoms, with a wideranging selection of aircraft (but only a few of the types included would have been onboard at any given time).
Aircraft supplied include four Swordfish (two folded, two spread), four Martlets/Wildcats, two Seafires/Spitfires, two Sea Hurricanes/Hurricanes, two Corsairs, two Barracudas and four Fulmars (two folded, two spread), plus two SB2C Helldivers and two SBD Dauntless aircraft - the latter two types never formed part of ILLUSTRIOUS' air group (admittedly the instructions indicate they are not required).
Some parts (eg cranes, wireless masts) would benefit from replacement with photo-etch parts.

All in all, a considerable improvement upon the old ILLUSTRIOUS or VICTORIOUS kits - but, on recent form, the promised Flyplane versions may be better still - time will tell!

[Pieter]

Victorious flew US navy SBDs when she was operating with USS Saratoga in 1943. I do not think she ever flew SB2Cs.
http://www.armouredcarriers.com/uss-rob ... ictorious/

[HMS Zulu]

Is the aircraft fleet and numbers the same on the new Aoshima Victorious kit? The photos online seem to show two types of biplane, one possibly an Albacore? I'm after maximum numbers of Barracudas if anyone has any spare....

[Plasma_Frigate]

I wish we could get more 1/350 British aircraft carriers in plastic kits apart from Ark Royal. Can't believe there are two German ones out now, that weren't even commissioned.