The Ship Model Forum

apropos Ratlines...

I had some ratlines drawn up and etched for me for my upcoming( * at some stage *) 1860 BRETAGNE project

my Bretagne will be 1/700

These are relief etched
The thing with PE shrouds and ratlines-they in scale AND Robust in small scaless

your 2 models are more than twice the scale
- which will allow greater variation of line thickness
and more effective relief etching
--whilst retaining the repeatability and symmetry( as well as strength))


( many -( but not all ==>McNarry Reed etc )-- small scale ratlines are either overscale or very un-even

with your painterly skills you well add magic...to the PE in 1/300 scale
The artwork below is the 2 sides for Bretagne @ 400 % enlarhed (!)

note the dead eye sets and the relief etched footropes

Mine were done in Stainless steel , --- brass is just too soft and vulnerable during the remaining rigging process

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....I buy them at three times the speed I build 'em.... will I live long enough to empty my stash...?
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Many thanks everyone!


Wow Jim, those look great!

In 1/700 scale, I would definitely go for PE too. Certainly the best choice by far!
But in 1/300 scale, the main mast shrouds of Victory are 0,3 mm in diameter, the mizzen shrouds 0,2mm. At that thickness, I have to admit I like the 'twisted rope' effect Philip Reed achieves with copper wire. Both the twisting and the soft copper will also be very helpful for the heavy battle damage I will have to inflict on them I think. So, I would like to give that method a try first.
But if I fail miserably, I will of course turn to photo etching!
If have to say I'm really looking forward to the rigging. A challenge that is new to me, and therefore pretty exciting! I think I will need your advise on several occasions for that...

At that diameter, you can go for 'real' rope made from fly-tying threads. I made myself a micro-ropewalk for that purpose.

I found twisted-wire rope not so easy to handle, as it distorts easily (and almost permanently), particularly, when you cannot set it really taught (which I think would be difficult at these small sizes). It works perhaps, when you can pre-frabricate the shrouds, including deadeyes and lanyards, and stick them onto the model as a unit. You then have to fake something, where they normally would go around the masts.

McNarry uses a NiCr-alloy and stretches the twisted 'rope' to kind of work-harden it to make it stiffer. I have moved to a CuNi-alloy ('Konstantan'), as it is somewhat stiffer than copper and has a higher tensile strength. Konstantan-wire seems easier to get than NiCr-wire. The latter is used in electrical heating devices (e.g. toasters, fan-heaters), but not so easy to find outside industry.

Some people also use pre-tinned copper-wire and solder the ratlines in place in a jig. The pre-tinned wire only needs flux to be added and no messing around with additional solder.

For served rope I also used silk-spun copper-wire or stranded copper-wire (see my WESPE building-log).

_________________
Eberhard

Former chairman Arbeitskreis historischer Schiffbau e.V. (German Association for Shipbuilding History)

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Many thanks for all the tips Eberhart! Most interesting stuff!

Philip Reed writes that he tried many harder wire alloys, but didn't like them and actually prefers the softness of copper. I guess it is a matter of personal preference, and (maybe even more importantly) what one is accustomed to. But I'm not really accustomed to anything yet, so I better try out some different materials!
Where do you get the Kostantan wire? Which diameters are available?


Yes, that is exactly what Reed does (like McNarry before him), and what I plan to do too. He describes the process very clearly in his 'Period Ship Modelmaking' book. But I guess you must own a copy of that, no?
He glues each contact point between shrouds and ratlines with superglue. Robert Wilson does solder them like you describe, but I feel Reed gets much finer results and I don't think I will need the extra strength.


That's already in place (again like Reed does it):

It is tinned copper wire. Simply because I could buy entire spools in different diameters of the stuff. It seems to behave very much like uncoated copper wire and twists very nicely.

No, I don't have Reed's, but I had copy of McNarry's book since it came out.

Indeed it is Bob Wilson, who solders the shrouds/ratlines in a jig using tinned Cu-wire. I quite like this tinned Cu-wire because it is also a tad stiffer than plain Cu-wire. The only source for non-industrial quantities of that tinned wire I found is unfortunately in the UK (www.wires.co.uk), but I a supply pre-Brexit, before VAT and postage that went through the roof.

The Konstantan I got off ebay. It's a bit of hit and miss. The smallest diametre I found was 0.06 mm.

Incidentally, there is also so-called 'jump-wire' in silver that apparently is used to repair printed circuit-boards. This seems to be available down to 0.02 mm diametre. It's actually quite cheap. Again, I sourced a supply in China via ebay, but today I am rather hesitant to buy such things directly - one has to find a trader that takes care of the customs processing.

I also got some molybdenum wire off ebay - it is used inter alia as cutting wire to separate damaged glass-screens from the LCD-screen of mobile phones. It is very tough (one can easily damage too soft pliers and cutters) and springy. It doesn't work for rigging, but would make nice straight rails that would be difficult to damage.

To be honest, I don't like the straight ratlines that some people produce, but when using wire, it would be very difficult to reproduce the natural catena.

_________________
Eberhard

Former chairman Arbeitskreis historischer Schiffbau e.V. (German Association for Shipbuilding History)

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I ordered a few spools via https://www.scientificwire.com/ many years ago for my source of bare brass wire that can be very easily soldered; with the right flux any wire will be prethinned without any other form of residue? Not sure, but I think the smallest one I bought was 0.1 while the 0.05/0.075 wire might be needed if you want to make brass 'rope'. Winding wires are not suited as these may be coated. With a jig it might be well possible so solder the entire ratline and 'deform' the wires a bit to simulate droop; of course, bending prior to soldering makes life a bit easier but the solder usually races through the wire before you know it. Anyway, I'd certainly try that first before etching the entire ratline, but some details from etch can be used and soldered?



By the looks of this, not using wrapped wire for the crosslines (don't know term as a post-wood person) is defensible. Bit if wrapping them around the may stays, bit of heat, fixed?

(Also nice work on the 180 tiny guns! Insert dart comment..)

They're called ratlines, and they were fixed to each shroud they crossed by a clove hitch, except at the ends where I think they used some combination of siezing and eye-splicing.

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King George V class Battleships in 3D

Many thanks guys! Great discussion!


I also got my supply from them! I also got from them non-tinned copper wire down to 0,025mm.
Luckily also pre-Brexit...


Actually, wire should make it easier to get that catena as it can be bent and stays put, contrary to rope which would need some fixing agent (like shellac?).
Reed simply bends the ratlines a bit with a shaped wooden tool (in 1/300 easily sanded from the tip of a toothpick I'm sure) after constructing them on a frame, but before detaching them from that frame. It doesn't seem to distort the shrouds to any noticeable extent.
In this video, you can find some good close-ups of his shrouds and ratlines: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmtZw2XS-uQ

This is 1/192, but he also does it at 1/384 so I should be fine at 1/300.
At 10:48 in the video, you get a glimpse of the frame he uses.


I guess you mean his 1955 how-to book, or probably the 1982 re-edition? I have the latter, and that's a great book too! I also have his 1975 'model showcase' book which I also enjoy a lot. Fantastic stuff that was way ahead of his time...
Reed's books are of course much more modern, provide more photographs (and much closer up!) and more how-to details. His way of doing ratlines is basically the same as McNarry's, but his book 'period Ship Modelmaking' shows Reed's way of doing shrouds and ratlines in much more detail, including how to get the dimensions to fit the mast and channels, and how to fit them to the mast top.
I also have his 'Modelling Sailing Men-of-war' and 'Building a Miniature Navy Board Model' books. The former is a bit older, which shows mostly in the photography and the fact the photo's are mostly B&W. But both are great books too. There is of course some overlap in content with 'period Ship Modelmaking', but I find them still to be very much complementary. All of them: highly recommended! I didn't just read al of them, but I re-read them many times, so effectively really studying them.
I don't own his 'Waterline Warships' book, which is about scratchbuilding (1/192 scale) steel warships. I should get it too...


Yes, I think I will use non-twistes single-strand wire. In 1/300 the ratlines are about 0,04mm. Maybe I could twist two strands of 0,025mm wire together and get close to that, but I guess it would be better to just use a single strand of 0,025 wire for a finer effect (a layer of paint will quickly get that close to 0,04 anyway)? But I guess I should try both and see...
I won't wrap them around the shrouds though (they are only about 2mm apart!), just glue them on top. Reed does it that way, and in 1/192 it still looks very good I think (see video above). For him, supergluing seems to work perfectly fine, so I think I will try to avoid soldering at the moment...


I got some 0,06mm 'rigging wire' from Shelf Oddity, which I suspect is molybdenum. I think it could be good for very thin and long straight rigging wires, but it may be more useful of 1/700 and 1/300 steel warships than on my current project. Certainly it needs to be cut to exact length before gluing, as once in place it will be about impossible to trim!

Or do you mean the short ropes high up the mast connecting the port and starboard shrouds? Those are called catharpins and were used to pull the shrouds in slightly to allow the yards to be braced round further. There was usually a stave (wooden pole) lashed to the shrouds at that level, and the catharpins were attached to that, either with eye-splices, or I think I've also seen them looped around and their ends run down and siezed to the shrouds.

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King George V class Battleships in 3D

Marijn, an alternative would be using 0.04mm copper wire enamelled or nor, easily available on Aliexpress. CA-gluing is better than soldering i guess. The only con of it is the long shipping wait . I purchased an order of copper wires ranging from 0.01 to 0.05mm from two different suppliers and they were delivered in about two months. The products quality is fairy good, the main problem with 0.02 and 0.01mm copper wires is that they are very fragile and often break during manipulation, this is a limitation when working with long sections. Another con i experienced with the 0.01 wire is linked to the damage of the wire reels during shipping: only small sections of wire were usable. And that happened despite an apparent correctness in the packaging procedures. Fortunately i only had to use very small sections of wire.



I extensively used Shelf Oddity 0.6 wire for my 1/400 gun and SLC Maiale projects, both as a glue applicator and for the actual superdetailing. It's a jolly good product. Very versatile. A must-have in my opinion. I figured out it to be made of nickel at the beginning, but the hardness of the wire at cutting makes me think of a harder alloy, maybe molybdenum as you say. The wire bends with a moderate-to-strong pressure/traction and keeps the new shape without deforming or bending. Cutting it with a blade often results in blade damage and in a not so clean cut, so i advice scissor or clipper-cutting. It's easily glued with CA, acrylic glue and can be soldered without problems. To me it's the ultimate wire, i'll never stop praising this product and thank the guys at Shelf Oddity for it.

Congrats on the latest progress, always top notch and very realistic. On standby for further progress.

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http://www.3xblackcats.wordpress.com

Oops, I meant I have Llyod McCaffery's books since it came out. I got copies of McNarry's original 1955 and the 1975 re-edition, as well.

_________________
Eberhard

Former chairman Arbeitskreis historischer Schiffbau e.V. (German Association for Shipbuilding History)

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Many thanks for the tips SG1!
Some more reasons to go shopping online again...


I should get that one too one day...

In the meantime, I painted the decks.

I’m sorry, I didn’t take complete step-by-step photos of the process. This is because I had to mess around a little more than usual to get the effects to my liking (they are my first larger wooden decks…), and I just wanted to get on with it without thinking about photography…
But basically, the same techniques and paints were used as for the rest of the ships.





The forecastle of Redoutable.
The edges of the decks, towards the bulwarks, will need to be filled and finished later. The decks are still detachable at this moment, so I can glue the guns, crew etc. on the lower decks.



The quarterdeck of Redoutable:


At the moment, the decks are way too clean compared to the hull sides. But after each deck is attached and the gaps to the bulwarks finished, I will still add all kinds of rubble (splinters, fallen rigging and blocks, etc.) and add some extra dirt and grime (and blood…).

Victory’s forecastle:


And her poop deck. The white hammock netting covers are not weathered yet (and still detachable).


One of the more time-consuming jobs was to highlight the planks one by one. I did this by overpainting them with diluted oil paints (the darker dust mix I used before: Abt 503 Buff + Flesh). By varying the dilution and/or the amount of layers on each plank, I created some tonal variation between individual planks in the process.

Not to waste time, I only did this on the decks that will remain properly visible. For example: on the upper decks, I only did the areas in the waist because the rest will be hidden under the forecastle and quarterdeck:


And under the poop deck, I stopped highlighting the quarterdecks aft of the mizzen mast:


The more observant may have noticed some figures in the photos above.
Ion Model has been willing to custom upscale their 1/700 18-19th century deck crew (https://ionmodel.com/product/18-19th-ce ... -crew-700/) for me to 1/300, and I got them in the mail them two weeks ago.
They adjusted the body proportions to the new scale so they wouldn’t look clunky, but didn’t add any additional detail (which I wouldn’t expect anyway). And as you can see, that is not really necessary at all in this scale! And the printing quality is excellent. I couldn’t be happier! Many thanks Ion Model!





So next up will be part of the crew

I already had withdrawal-symptoms ... nice work on the deck. Yep, giving individual planks a wash is time-consuming, but brings the deck to life.

I found the seams a bit prominent, however. When I did a job like this last time. I sealed the painted (all acrylics) deck with some semi-gloss varnish and then applied a very light beige wash. The varnish allowed me to wipe off the wash in case I was not happy with the effect. This toned down the seams. The deck finally was given another sprayed coat of matt varnish.

_________________
Eberhard

Former chairman Arbeitskreis historischer Schiffbau e.V. (German Association for Shipbuilding History)

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Hi, Marijn,

at this scale I would not expect to see a gold tooth in one of the men's mouth . How do you fix figures, with PVA-woodglue or superglue? I used both in some of my 1/350 builts, with white glue it is better to move a figure around, but upon close examination a blob of glue is visible.

Cheers, Walter

Hi Marijn,

With the decks it's becoming more and more complete!

Just one question: the little rings or ferrules around the masts where they cross the deck were in fact a set of wooden wedges covered with a sailcloth hood for watertightness (called mastvissing in Dutch I think, I can't find the English term for it). So a simple black is maybe not quite right. Hardly anybody will notice in this scale, however your magnification made me aware of this detail.

_________________
"I've heard there's a wicked war a-blazing, and the taste of war I know so very well
Even now I see the foreign flag a-raising, their guns on fire as we sail into hell"
Roger Whittaker +9/13/2023

Many thanks Eberhart, Walter and Maarten!


You are right, the seams are too prominent at the moment. And thanks for the tip!
But it will be toned down in the future by the dirt and grime I plan on adding later. That dirt will be added mostly as washes too, so it will be close to the technique you describe. It won't cover the decks entirely or evenly, but it will bring the general contrast of the seams down a notch or two.
On top of that, a significant percentage of the decks will be covered by guns, figures, equipment, ropes, rubble, etc., making the decks and their seams less conspicuous too.
So I made the conscious choice to start from maximum contrast now, as toning it down to taste will be easier than adding contrast. And it will still be a fun challenge to find a balance in all of that. At least one that looks good to me, as right now it looks overdone to me too.


I haven't done any 1/300 - 1/350 figures yet, but in 1/700 I used superglue. Mostly for the speed. I always used the gel type because that gives more time to adjust things. Well, adjust their stance at least, because you can't move them around much after putting them on the deck...
You also have to be careful not to use too much glue, but for me superglue would be easier to avoid glue blobs than white glue. And faster!
I always put a dab of matt varnish on and around the feet after gluing to hide any sheen from the glue. I like to think it also helps to reinforce the joint a little, but I can't say I made a comparative test...

That said, those seams were certainly not invisible:



Thanks Maarten! I was aware of this, but that canvas was usually painted. I took black for Victory from photos of her in her current colours, and for Redoutable from Boudriot. I will have to fill the seams between these hoops and the lower masts when I attach the masts (especially with Redoutable, where I may have to extend the entire rings upwards in a conical shape with Magic Sculp if I want to follow Boudriot exactly) and touch up the paint. I may paint some small creases in them at that time?

I will face the challenge of placing (1/160 scale) figures in the not too distant future and think will use matt varnish for this, because this is what the decks were treated with. In this way any excess might not be very conspicuous.

Larger scale (1/87 and larger) I fitted with short lengths of stiff wire in one foot, but that will not be feasible physically at smaller scales.

What is important is to sand the feet flat in one plane, so that the figure has a good stand on the ground and doesn't wobble.

_________________
Eberhard

Former chairman Arbeitskreis historischer Schiffbau e.V. (German Association for Shipbuilding History)

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Excellent progress Marijn! Very good of Ion Model to have upscaled their figures for you! Do you think you'll convert any figures, changing poses etc? Very curious to see them painted. Am looking forward to see the decks damaged, filled with debris and stained with blood... and maybe to see some golden tooth appearing somewhere

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http://www.3xblackcats.wordpress.com

Thanks guys!



That may work fine, because they have a larger contact area in that scale compared to 1/300. On the other hand, if you're a little careful with superglue it is not too hard to avoid excess.


Certainly! I worked a lot in 1/35, and pinning the figures firmly to whatever they stand on is an absolute must. I learned that the hard way in y younger years...
But when the legs get too thin to drill a hole through it is not feasible anymore indeed. Luckily small scale figures have less mass, so we can get away with only glue.


Yes! This is something many armour modellers forget when placing a figure on a vehicle...


Yes, certainly! I have certain activities and little sub-stories in mind that will need some conversion work. But that is much easier if one has a good base to start from!
Also, Ion Model custom printed for me a number of figures from their other sets that have action poses too (but that look generic enough, i.e. shirt and trousers). So that provides me with more variation in poses to work from. So often I will be able to use a stock figure but simply give it a musket, or a boarding pike, or a handspike to leverage a gun, or...