Calling all Bismarck and Tirpitz fans

Fliger747 · Post by **Fliger747** » Sun Jan 16, 2022 12:48 pm

Pascal:

Good sleuthing, I did see the links to the Bismarck's testing reports. Funny, I didn't remember the passage about the barrels from the Barron's book, usually I remember unusual stuff like that. The early A scope Radars were just a plain Ocilliscope which measured the arrival times and amplitudes of pulse returns, yielding range and a measure of reflectivity. Since there was no recording method available at the time photography was used to evaluate the returns on Gneissnau. In a similar manner cockpit photography (sometimes movies) were used to record cockpit instrumentation during test flights, even well into the jet age. The first flight recorders (black boxes) used needles scribing on a foil to record several parameters.

Cathode Ray Tubes were and are still an excellent analogue device. Today we have digital Radar in aircraft, but I have flown planes (DHC-7) where the radar was a green screen (phosphors) display. This had advantages such as flying out in the Aleutian Islands of having a very detailed ground mapping display. Going into San Point for instance in bad weather you could identify features such as the boat dock! The modern doppler radars we use for weather avoidance has much better capabilities fro that purpose. CRT's and the associated vacuum tubes were generally quite fragile with regards to shock, essentially an expensive light bulb, and a ships own main battery fire might put the radar out of service.

The Iowa's with reactivation used a doppler radar system to measure the muzzle velocity os each barrel, allowing real time adjustment for barrel wear and powder lot variations, improving accuracy.

Cheers: Tom

Thegreenmachine · Post by **Thegreenmachine** » Mon Nov 07, 2022 1:05 pm

I've wondered about the vertical objects present on Bruno and Cesar turret barbettes on Bismarck. What are these for and how did they work? Some kind of ventilation with covers, I assume. Can anyone explain these to me?

Couldn't find any details about these in my sources. Tirpitz never had these installed, a pretty obvious difference between the two ships.

Edoardo81 · Post by **Edoardo81** » Mon Sep 25, 2023 2:07 am

Hi all,
I've just ended a USA cruiser.
Now I've planned to come back to WWII battleships and I've purchased the 1/350 Revell Bismack.
I will add also the pontos upgrade kit.

Now my question is: can you suggest to me a good book about the Bismarck for taking references, pictures, details, ecc. for being more accurate possible?
I have read the first page of this topic but I've seen it's very old and mybe till now something has changed or there are new books or others things.

Thanks a lot

Iceman 29 · Post by **Iceman 29** » Mon Sep 25, 2023 5:10 am

Thegreenmachine wrote:I've wondered about the vertical objects present on Bruno and Cesar turret barbettes on Bismarck. What are these for and how did they work? Some kind of ventilation with covers, I assume. Can anyone explain these to me?

Couldn't find any details about these in my sources. Tirpitz never had these installed, a pretty obvious difference between the two ships.

Bismarck:

These are indeed ventilation ducts, but on the "Bruno" turret they are covered by a protection only on the port side, because of the sea spray. On the C turret they are not, because the rear is more protected.
These protections were added after the ship's sea trials.

This one, near the 150mm side turrets, will be raised later too, to prevent seawater ingress and so be able to leave the vents open during bad weather.

Caesar turret:

Iceman 29 · Post by **Iceman 29** » Mon Sep 25, 2023 5:25 am

Edoardo81 wrote:Hi all,
I've just ended a USA cruiser.
Now I've planned to come back to WWII battleships and I've purchased the 1/350 Revell Bismack.
I will add also the pontos upgrade kit.

Now my question is: can you suggest to me a good book about the Bismarck for taking references, pictures, details, ecc. for being more accurate possible?
I have read the first page of this topic but I've seen it's very old and mybe till now something has changed or there are new books or others things.

Thanks a lot

Lot of pictures of Bismarck during fitting and sea trials here:

https://www.historyphotos.org/bismarck

Edoardo81 · Post by **Edoardo81** » Tue Sep 26, 2023 9:37 am

Thanks a lot!
Very useful!

chuck · Post by **chuck** » Tue Nov 21, 2023 9:16 pm

does anyone know where I can find drawing or illustration of the prominent engine cooling water intakes on the side of Bismarck? the openings are rather large in 1/200 scale, i recall there are vanes in the curved intake duct visible through the grills on the side.

also, does anyone know if any photos of Bismarck�s bulbous forefoot taken after the ship has largely completed her fitting out? i want to confirm Anatomy of the Ship�s depiction which indicate there is a prominent depression across the forefoot to accommodate active sonar transducers. i don�t believe the depression on the bulb was there when Bismarck was launched, and it is also not visible on Tirpitz�s bulb when the latter was launched.

chuck · Post by **chuck** » Wed Nov 22, 2023 5:22 pm

thank you, that explains the sonar transducers.

one more question regarding Bismarck�s hangar doors. How does the door for the double hangar under the main mast work? there is a track on the curved front side of the hangar, suggesting the hangar door opens like a barn door and slide to one side. however, there seems to be only one obvious barn door style hangar door that when closed is on the port side. there seems to be no door or opening on the starboard side. i don�t think it is feasible for both aircraft in the double to share one single door because the main mast would prevent the aircraft�s stowed inside to be moved from side to side. so there must be another door on the starboard side. so how does the door system work?

Post by **Timmy C** » Wed Nov 22, 2023 6:22 pm

I can't answer your big question, but can confirm it slides sideways:

Edit: AOTS Bismarck had this to say for the smaller hangars next to the funnel, and it may also apply for the doublehangar:

chuck · Post by **chuck** » Wed Nov 22, 2023 10:21 pm

The small single hangers doors actually have two parts. One part is hinged on the outboard side of the hangar and swings outwards to open like a typical room door. The other part slides on tracks that is attached to the swinging part. So when the hangar swings shut, the swinging part of door covers only half of the hangar opening. The sliding part attached to the swinging part than slides inboard to close off the remaining hanger door opening. That seem easily deduced from drawings,

(There is a separate door over the top of the main hangar door to allow the rudder of the Arado to clear the hangar, but that�s a different story)

However the double hangar door is less clear in its mode of operation. I agree there must be two separate doors for the double hanger, and the only way for them to open it for one to slide sideways either in front or behind the other. I also suspect the starboard side door is built with reinforcing girders on the inside, and smooth on the outside, While the port side door has reinforcing girders on the outside and smooth on the inside, so the smooth sides face eachother and allow the two doors to slide past each other. However such an arrangement would leave a gap behind the port side door to allow starboard door to slide behind it. This is untenable because it would prevent the hangar from sealing against water ingress around the edge of the doors.

So my guess is the doors don�t just slide. They are also arranged move a small distance in and out. They move in towards the hangar to seal the opening. They move outwards to clear the door frame and also create space behind the port side door to allow starboard door to slide behind it.

All the photos I�ve seen either show the double hangar closed, or only the port side is open. This makes it hard to confirm and reject my interpretation. Has anyone seen photos of bismarck�s double hangar where the starboard side is open?

Admhawk · Post by **Admhawk** » Thu Nov 23, 2023 5:17 pm

The plans show the Stbd door on the outside and the Port door on the inside, so they both slide, just on opposite sides of the center bulkhead.

What I find more interesting is why the plans are reversed from the photos. The photos show the Port door on the outside, and yes, I confirmed the photo wasn't reversed.

chuck · Post by **chuck** » Sat Nov 25, 2023 4:00 am

Thank you, that makes sense.

Fliger747 · Post by **Fliger747** » Sat Nov 25, 2023 1:27 pm

Always amazed at the clarity of the old photographs when taken with a large format camera, in this case probably a 4x5 Linhoff press Camera. Thanks fro sharing the photos!

chuck · Post by **chuck** » Sat Nov 25, 2023 1:56 pm

Admhawk wrote:The plans show the Stbd door on the outside and the Port door on the inside, so they both slide, just on opposite sides of the center bulkhead.

What I find more interesting is why the plans are reversed from the photos. The photos show the Port door on the outside, and yes, I confirmed the photo wasn't reversed.

Interesting the small doors above the main hangar doors that let Arado�s vertical stabilizers clear the hangar door also seem to be hinged to open in opposite ways. The port hangar stabilizer door, above the hangar door that slides to the ship�s right or the above photo�s left on the outside, is hinged to open outwards,e. While the starboard stabilizer door above the hangar door that slides to the left on the inside is hinged to open inwards.

This means the Arado float planes must be stowed with front towards the front of the ship, because otherwise the inward swinging stabilizer doors will hit the stabilizer is it swings.

Fliger747 · Post by **Fliger747** » Sat Nov 25, 2023 3:37 pm

Because of the interior arrangement the plane would most likely insert engine to the front (away from doors) because the horizontal stab is the widest part and does not fold.

Tom

Admhawk · Post by **Admhawk** » Sun Nov 26, 2023 4:48 pm

There seems to be some confusion on terminology. Hopefully, this clarifies things a bit.

I should point out that the aircraft drawing doesn't have anything to do with which end went in to the hangar first. It is also very approximate in it's scale.

chuck · Post by **chuck** » Thu Nov 30, 2023 4:35 pm

Bismarck has large grills for cooling water intakes and discharge on the side of the hull, above turn of the bilge. I recall seeing drawings of the duct work which indicate the interior ducts are a horizontal Y shape, with one branch being the intake for cooling water and the other branch are for discharging used cooling water overboard, and due to the size of grills the ducts are easily visible from the outside. but i can�t find the drawings.

would anyone know where i can find drawing for these?

Admhawk · Post by **Admhawk** » Fri Dec 01, 2023 5:48 pm

I can't remember where I got this, but it's all I can find that shows the grills.

Post by **ModelMonkey** » Fri Dec 01, 2023 9:15 pm

Modeler Bernd Willmer constructed the intakes and discharges from what appear to be good drawings for his amazingly detailed 1/100 scale Bismarck model. Although I don't have his drawings or his contact information, here are photos he posted years ago of that work.

Perhaps someone here will be able to help further.

alx · Post by **alx** » Sat Dec 02, 2023 1:18 am

Get your hands on a copy of "Sink the Bismarck". In the first minute, they show the launching of the actual hull of the Bismarck and that will show you some of the detail that you are searching for.