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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2024 6:54 am 
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wefalck wrote:
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I heard that the museum now after remodeling in Paris doesnt have them anymore, except for just couple. Is that so? Did they really move them away?


This, unfortunately, is correct. Most of those splendid models are now in storage, safe LA GLOIRE.


Dont they wanna sell them? I can see myself actually buying one. Wonder what is the reason ... What if they sold to some rich guys to decorate their office and officially the public is none the wise.
Im fresh off a visit to Stockholm Maritime Museum that has plenty of ship models and it blows my mind someone would put away those wonderful ironclads. What a shame.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2024 9:15 am 
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wefalck wrote:
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I heard that the museum now after remodeling in Paris doesnt have them anymore, except for just couple. Is that so? Did they really move them away?


This, unfortunately, is correct. Most of those splendid models are now in storage, safe LA GLOIRE.


"La Gloire" is on display:

https://www.ouest-france.fr/culture/mus ... 868188f4e2

"In the display case, the silver model gleams. "The Gloire has been restored down to the last detail, the entire deck has been rebuilt, shrouds, sails... It's the collector's item that fascinates me most," admits Vincent Campredon. "The steam propulsion gives it great speed, despite the weight of its wrought-iron armor," says the cartel. La Gloire is the link between the old world and the new world," continues the director, before adding, spoilering a little the display cases at the head of the armada: "The next big step is nuclear propulsion, which brings extraordinary autonomy."

According to the museum administrator, it is planned that the models in reserve will rotate with those on display over the years.
Restoration works are probably still in progress.

Photos: Beranger.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2024 10:35 am 
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Yes, as I said LA GLOIRE is still there. She is of too high historical significance to sacrfice her to modern 'museography' (that tends to disconsider the value of the object per se in favour of societal or political meaning or worse: message) and put her into storage.

In autumn 2022 I think it was, I attended a workshop in the museum's restauration workshop, where they explained the works on LA GLOIRE. Keeping these iron-clads with their bright real iron armour in good shape is not so trivial, as iron obviously is prone to rust due to humidity in the air and acids from the surrounding wood.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2024 1:40 pm 
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OK, so theyll rotate the other models as they get restored. Lets hope so, it would be awful if they linger in basements.

Ill do my part to make some French ships from my side to keep their legacy going. :wave_1:

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2024 2:33 pm 
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Well, they have a purpose-build depot now near the old Paris airport of Le Bourget. I have not (yet) been inside the storage facility, but it seems to be well organised. In principle, one can arrange to view indvidual items, but they are usually made safe for storage and moving around, i.e. tied down to baseboards, delicate items fastened so that they don't get lost, etc., so that they would be difficult to photograph.

The scale of these models is usually 1:50, so they are huge - not quite a decoration for the average salon - unless you own a chateau.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2024 3:14 pm 
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wefalck wrote:
Yes, as I said LA GLOIRE is still there..


I misunderstood your sentence. sorry!

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2024 4:47 am 
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Every museum, and every decision on how to display its contents, carries a message whether you want to or not. People who deny there is such a thing as a message are the creeps who want you to forget the darker sides of history. "Modern museography" is about being open about the choices you make and why you make them. The move to open depots like this is part of this movement toward transparency.
As a (non maritime) archivist I'm obliged to be clear and transparent about everything I restore , keep or destroy for the same reason.
Please stop using my maritime colleagues as a false strawman.
wefalck wrote:
Yes, as I said LA GLOIRE is still there. She is of too high historical significance to sacrfice her to modern 'museography' (that tends to disconsider the value of the object per se in favour of societal or political meaning or worse: message) and put her into storage.

In autumn 2022 I think it was, I attended a workshop in the museum's restauration workshop, where they explained the works on LA GLOIRE. Keeping these iron-clads with their bright real iron armour in good shape is not so trivial, as iron obviously is prone to rust due to humidity in the air and acids from the surrounding wood.


Last edited by Pieter on Tue Jan 30, 2024 6:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2024 4:57 am 
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I don't want to degrade this into a non-topical discussion, but there are 'messages' and 'messages' ... I am well aware, that every human action carries an implicit 'message' about the originator and the respective socio-cultural, -economic, and -political context. My criticism is, that today the 'message' becomes more important than the artefact in many museums, depriving actually the visitor of the possibility to assess for him-/herself, as there is nothing to base the assessment on, but only a preformatted message to consume.

We should close this discussion, as it has nothing to do with the subject of this thread ...

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2024 5:38 am 
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As I cannot go to museum to check this, here is my approach to rebuilding the top deck (whatever the term is).
Attachment:
funnel Turenne.jpg
funnel Turenne.jpg [ 133.13 KiB | Viewed 569 times ]



So the kit is modelled with main deck only. I believe that is wrong, as on many images, paintings and photos there are people walking right on the freeboard top. But it is also clear it is not fully flush. I dont understand why it is like this, but it feels like it was a normal thing for the ironclad of this class, and its sisters (Vauban) that had 2 masts. Several images only exist to show rough outline of what the deck situation is.

This is a model , so sacrifices will be made to god of "Good Enough". I am super open to anyone suggesting me the detail of the steering wheel docking bridge in the back - was it on deck or was it elevated? But it is certainly there, just ahead of the Mizzenmast.

Below is the layout with evidence. Original image posted also, for comparison. Did I get it right?

Attachment:
what to do on Turenne deck.jpg
what to do on Turenne deck.jpg [ 294.82 KiB | Viewed 576 times ]

Attachment:
Bayard topdown.jpg
Bayard topdown.jpg [ 154.69 KiB | Viewed 576 times ]


Details:


Attachments:
Turenne_03.jpg
Turenne_03.jpg [ 69.95 KiB | Viewed 576 times ]
Le_Vauban_barbette_grande.jpg
Le_Vauban_barbette_grande.jpg [ 266.31 KiB | Viewed 576 times ]
File comment: This is not Turenne , but just trying to figure out whethere the wheel is below the walkway, or walkway isnt there, or wheel is on top of it.
s-l1600 copy.jpg
s-l1600 copy.jpg [ 72.73 KiB | Viewed 576 times ]

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2024 9:18 am 
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This is the only drawing I have of the structures. It is obviously not planked. Their placement can be seen in a number of drawings of Duguesclin where they follow the maximum traverse angles of the main guns.
I wonder if we are looking at blast shields. The boats that are placed on them would be removed in battle and the boat cradles also look like they could be dismantled if necessary.
Attachment:
bayardturrets.jpg
bayardturrets.jpg [ 146.03 KiB | Viewed 567 times ]


Attachments:
duguesclindr.jpg
duguesclindr.jpg [ 252.01 KiB | Viewed 567 times ]
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2024 9:45 am 
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The French came up with a somewhat unique solution to protect the barbette-guns and crews from small arms fire and shrapnell. They put a sort of turtle-shell over them, here seen on the Parisian model of L'AMIRAL DUPERRÉ (1879):

Image

Image

The cut-off drawing on the top seems to show such structure.

I gather this only became a viable option, once smokeless powder was introduced.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2024 9:56 am 
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Pascalmod wrote;

" ..... so sacrifices will be made to god of "Good Enough "...

:big_grin: :big_grin: :thumbs_up_1: :heh: :cool_1: :cool_2: :Mad_6: :Mad_6:

Aaaaarghhhh !!!

can you hear my heartbeat recovering after that statement...

heheheh!

Jim Baumann :wave_1:

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2024 10:32 am 
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Pieter wrote:
This is the only drawing I have of the structures. It is obviously not planked. Their placement can be seen in a number of drawings of Duguesclin where they follow the maximum traverse angles of the main guns.
I wonder if we are looking at blast shields. The boats that are placed on them would be removed in battle and the boat cradles also look like they could be dismantled if necessary.


Yes, I dont know how to read those plans. Yes, there is a cover, and it is not planked. Blast shields? The whole deck is covered? where possible? What about those gantries along the hull, they are walkways along and people walk on them in many pictures, they are obviously not walking on the gunwales or - what are you suggesting, I dont think I follow! :wave_1: Build the upper deck or not? Paint it brown or wood?

The painting of the Vauban is clear enough showing some kind of cover. Is it that you suggest all of that stuff was temporary erected deck cover to protect deck from blast effect of the guns? So doesnt need to be on the model?

The covered decks seem actually normal and not shown on plans, may be it was always installed after?
Attachment:
4570ce09246e4a4ee9faeddb13997070.jpg
4570ce09246e4a4ee9faeddb13997070.jpg [ 76.51 KiB | Viewed 560 times ]

Attachment:
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Attachment:
vd9-3904686.jpg
vd9-3904686.jpg [ 131.5 KiB | Viewed 560 times ]


what do you make of this..
Attachment:
1000_F_298296223_Bi6ye3NEi2cVxTcVK7MHbvVvwp4OjUKk.jpg
1000_F_298296223_Bi6ye3NEi2cVxTcVK7MHbvVvwp4OjUKk.jpg [ 151.88 KiB | Viewed 560 times ]

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Last edited by pascalemod on Sun Feb 04, 2024 10:56 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2024 10:33 am 
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JIM BAUMANN wrote:
Pascalmod wrote;

" ..... so sacrifices will be made to god of "Good Enough "...

:big_grin: :big_grin: :thumbs_up_1: :heh: :cool_1: :cool_2: :Mad_6: :Mad_6:

Aaaaarghhhh !!!

can you hear my heartbeat recovering after that statement...

heheheh!

Jim Baumann :wave_1:


ONLY where I lack references AND knowlege. For example, what goes on the focsle? It is bare today. I can copy another ship, but - that bit is annoyingly empty. Same for this extra deck layer, it feels very hard to understand what Im looking at. :D

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2024 10:35 am 
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wefalck wrote:
The French came up with a somewhat unique solution to protect the barbette-guns and crews from small arms fire and shrapnell. They put a sort of turtle-shell over them, here seen on the Parisian model of L'AMIRAL DUPERRÉ (1879):


The cut-off drawing on the top seems to show such structure.

I gather this only became a viable option, once smokeless powder was introduced.


Yes, the gun shileds are another issue and is separate from my deck question. For that, I have to rebuild them from scratch. On the Turenne they were a bit different shape, circular when viewed from top, but more of an oblong shape when viewed side or head on. Strange shape, and the kit includeds something I cant bare to install, so I will scratch build one turret, and redoit in putty 4x, drill out the centers and hopefully it will be ok.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2024 2:18 pm 
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With black hull it looks more interesting, kind of how it makes sense, more impressive almost.

I need to figure out which colors would be for:

1. Funnel (for Mediterranean squadron, ca 1885 - red? Black? Buff?
2. Superstructures (beneath the funnel, pilot house - white? dirty-beige? Buff? Wood natural?
3. Masts - yellow or buff?
4. Turrets - white or buff?
5. Freeboard (on the inside, whatever it is called) - white (except sides of barbette?

Do we know what was practice for French Navy Ironclads ca 1885 in the Med?

If anyone has ideas please share. Have to start closing up the deck soon... and need to decide on paints. Below is just a prep.



Update: yesterday, which is like months since i started, I finally found (!!!) some kind of plans of the deck. And the call that these are blast shields for main deck seems credible. THe plans show a different layout of the bridge, but in fairness it shows Bayard and not Turenne. All in all, this is somewhat more useful as it confirms at least the deck had these awnings - covers around barbetts. Other arrangements seem also different, and thus, more changes can be made. Never boring!


Attachments:
IMG_4590.jpg
IMG_4590.jpg [ 385.06 KiB | Viewed 527 times ]
IMG_4608.JPG
IMG_4608.JPG [ 147.58 KiB | Viewed 517 times ]
IMG_4604.JPG
IMG_4604.JPG [ 86.16 KiB | Viewed 517 times ]

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Last edited by pascalemod on Mon Feb 05, 2024 3:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2024 4:03 am 
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similar ship, similare era

REDOUBTABLE

scratch built 1/384 scale by John Prothero -Thomas

might be useful or inspiring!

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2024 7:59 am 
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I missed the beginning of this thread. It is a coming along very good!

The lower hull looks great! I know its late in the construction and the hull is already done, but what helps with deformation and the epoxy separating from the polystyrene frames (it happened to me a lot in my experiments) is to make holes on the polystyrene frames, so epoxy will cure together between sections. Also for the bow and stern, a thin brass sheet will keep it sharp and more difficult to deform when sanding. Also the "keel" can be done with something more robust, like a thicker plastic beam or even steel (i haven't tried that).

I did something similar here: http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=171299

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2024 9:12 am 
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It's a bit late, indeed, but making the stem-keel-stern-piece from brass could be nice for a display model on pedestals, as early iron-clads sometimes did have bronze stem and stern-posts so as not to be subject electrolytic corrosion from the copper-plating.

Some 40 years ago I made a (larger) model of an iron steamship of that period with a brass backbone and brass bulkheads, the spaces infilled with hard foamboard.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2024 4:53 pm 
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wefalck wrote:
It's a bit late, indeed, but making the stem-keel-stern-piece from brass could be nice for a display model on pedestals, as early iron-clads sometimes did have bronze stem and stern-posts so as not to be subject electrolytic corrosion from the copper-plating.

Some 40 years ago I made a (larger) model of an iron steamship of that period with a brass backbone and brass bulkheads, the spaces infilled with hard foamboard.


hypno7 wrote:
I missed the beginning of this thread. It is a coming along very good!

The lower hull looks great! I know its late in the construction and the hull is already done, but what helps with deformation and the epoxy separating from the polystyrene frames (it happened to me a lot in my experiments) is to make holes on the polystyrene frames, so epoxy will cure together between sections. Also for the bow and stern, a thin brass sheet will keep it sharp and more difficult to deform when sanding. Also the "keel" can be done with something more robust, like a thicker plastic beam or even steel (i haven't tried that).

I did something similar here: http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=171299


I have your unused lower hull actually, I think you sent that to me a while ago. I tried to use it but it reacted with the actual kit of Chen Yuen, MELTING it. haha. So this is attempt 2.
I learned a lot doing this lower hull myself, you learn a lot when you screw up. I have plans to do few more of these, so fingers crossed this is a trial that ends well.

When I realized I was seeing a warped keel and so on, I have at least did a major surger on the bow and fixed with a thicker plastic card that was sharpened along the edge. I for sure looks better. Not perfect, but not bad.

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