The Ship Model Forum

The picture for the SPS 39 is correct in both cases. The Navy upgrade the antenna around the mid to late 60s. The antenna you see that looks like a SPS39 and SPS 52 look the same but if you saw them live and up close would be able to see some differences. The differences are not that great to matter much in building a great model. The big thing is getting the SPS 40 or the SPS 28 because it dates the ship. Basiclly a SPS 52 is a SPS 39 which at that time was newer eletronics to add auto tracking of air targets couple with NTDS. Ships with SPS 39 were non NTDS ships meaning they tracked everything the old way by status boards and manual ways. NTDS stands for Naval Tactical Data Sytems which enable ships to track radar video eletronlly and computed course and speed for the operators. Air radars like the SPS 52 were auto trackers of air targets which were married with the SM-2 missile. The conventional ships used the old Tartar missiles. There is a lot more to it but just google NTDS if you want to learn more. Also, I hope I don't offend any one on this, its just that I lived and breathed this for a living, and I know my radars. On a side note be carefull of the liferafts. When I served on the Benny she had the old style liferafts. Meaning they were not in the round cases. The Navy made the changes in the mid to late 70s for all ships.

Robbiee19,
I want to differ with you on your assessment about using the 2D radar to date the photo.

(For everybody else's info, let's get terms straight. The 3-dimensionaal radar is the one on the after stack; old=round SPS-39A and new=flat SPS-52. Robbie and I are in agreement on that. The 2 dimensional radar is the bigger one on top of the tripod up forward. The smaller one low on the tripod is SPS-10 surface search, and it didn't change. Credentials? It sounds like Robbie was on the waterfront in Hawaii where they kept the few DDG-2 class ships assigned there right up to date. I was in San Diego during the 1980's, long after SPS-28 should have been removed everywhere...

We are discussing new 2D = SPS-40, the thing on the picture of DDG-2 with a kind of oval shape reflector and a really prominent feed horn extending over the top - the thing you hate to make from PE - that is SPS-40.

older-looking 2D = SPS-28/29/37, the thing on picture of DDG-22 with rectangular bedspring reflector - easy to make with PE)

I didn't get to see ALL the DDG-2s, but one of my ships did sail a bunch with Henry B. Wilson, DDG-7. And in 1980 - 83, Henry B still had SPS-37. It was the still old-looking antenna that the SPS-28/29 used, but the system was now called SPS-37. You can see a handful of photos on navsource from the early 80's of Henry B (DDG-7) with this antenna, and the date is correct. And I can see that when I left town and went to the East Coast for a while in 84, she got upgraded to SPS-40 and they took some more photos.

No offense, Robbiee.

And I can't add Jacksquat to the discussion about what was installed on East Coast ships after that because I became a snipe and they took away my fresh air chit. I hardly saw another ship until we deployed.

However, Tony...
One more difference you can pay attention to...
There are two different TACAN antennas. The original is that little dome on the very top of the tripod mast. In the '80s, they transitioned to a pancake-looking thing with a spike on it. (highly technical description) One example of the new model in Navsource was Buchanan in Sydney in 1985.

Best regards,
Rick

And one more difference, since we're on the subject...

For ships with a 5"54 gun, take a look at the dome(s). In mid-career of the 5"54 mount, something like Mk 6 or Mk 7, they shaved off the right hand observer's dome. I don't know which dome was the gun captain or which was One Man Control (OMC) or what because I didn't know my gunnery worth a bean, but the fact is that two domes = early and one dome should = late '70s or so. But just like the radar discussion, some ship may have had a conversion lag.
Rick

Aaaaaaah....
Ok Robbie, same radar, another design.
You guys make me happy

Best regards
Dirk

Ah thats what I was talking about. I didn't even bring up the SPS 10 which is a surface seacrh radar. Thought we were takling about Air seacrh radars, thats why I didn't even bring up the SPS 10. Oh by the way I was Station in Pearl, Charslton SC, San Diego, and Yoko. I was an OS Operation Specialist. Think I know what I am talking about. SPS 37 is esseintally a SPS 28. Different electronics inside the radar room same antenna. didn't what to bring up the terms 3D radars and 2D radar. Also, SPS 39 used the curved or round antenna and the flat antenna. The flat SPS 52 and 39 look the same, but there are differents. Some DDG-2 got varying degrees of upgrades over the years. Some ships got NTDS in the mid to late 70s some didn't get NTDS at all. Then some some got the NTU grades in the mid to late 80s. NTU was the upgrade that the DDG-40 Coontz class got along with the CG classes. I was just trying to keep simple for folks here with out confusing them all.

Hi Guys,
Here we go.
Noticing the differences..... I'll focus on one ship only......"Mr. Vasilli".

DDG-22 USS Benjamin Stoddert...........I'll do caption atop image....
Picture 1: Taken from navsource..... "USN photo, pre-1968".


Picture 2: Taken from navsource....."February 1 1979, location unknown. A starboard view of the guided missile destroyer USS Benjamin Stoddert (DDG-22) underway."


Picture 3: Taken from navsource....."Fremantle in the 80's".


Picture 4: Taken from navsource....."January 24 1986, location unknown, the guided missile destroyer USS Benjamin Stoddert (DDG 22 ) underway."


Name the differences............

Picture 1 shows DDG-22 with:
"Curved" SPS-39 radar, (have I got it???)...
01 Vertrep landing pad has extenions over hanging main deck...
Old life rafts....
5" mounts with 2 domes, "bugeyes".....
Foremast upper yard at base of SPS-40.....
Foremast lower yard at base of SPS-10.....
Domes for ECM on lowest tripod foremast platform.....
Elongated "tall" TACAN antenna.....
Large Dome on foremast upper-most platform.....
"Stove-pipes" at base of large dome on foremast.....
No 35' antenna on Mt 51....at least that's visible.....
Early aft 01 unrep gear, "lattice type"...not seen, but I know it's there cuz of the date.....
Only one visible "whip" antenna.....

Picture 2 shows DDG-22 with:
Flat SPS-52 3d a/s radar.....
01 Vertrep platform extensions are gone.....
Old life rafts.....
5" mounts with one dome, "bugeyes".....
Foremast upper yard is now at the base of Large dome platform.....
Foremast lower yard was the upper yard and is still at the base of SPS-40.....
Domes for ECM...no change visible.....
Elongated "tall" TACAN antenna.....no change visible.....
Large Dome on foremast upper-most platform.....no change visible.....
"Stovepipes"...gone.....
35' antennae on Mt51.....
Aft unrep station, (01 level), now has newer "kingpost"....
2 visible whip antennae, (excluding Mt51).....

Picture 3 shows DDG-22 with:
No IFF antennae visible on the SPS-52.....
One more small dome added to foremast platform second from bottom.....
Old style life rafts.....
SatCom antennae now in place Bridge face stbd side, and aft funnel deckhouse/base of lower missile director....
1 visible whip antenna, (excluding Mt51).....
No visible changes to foremast configuration.....

Picture 4 shows DDG-22 with:
IFF antennae visible on SPS-52.....
Foremast lowest 2 platforms that had the small domes...gone.....
SPQ-9 dome in place......
SLQ-32 in place p/s bridge roof.....
Same SatCom antenna and locations......
Mk68 Gunfire control director has been REPLACED with.....I don't know right quick.....
Encasulated life rafts.....
Both foremast yards have the same span....
Flat Tacan antenna....

That's what I've learned studying DDG-22 for the last 3 years....
These are the differences I've noticed, (externally).....as a modeler...
I was never a sailor, and my hat's off to any and all USN veterans!

faithfully submitted, TB

_________________
"You guys make this hobby fun!"
"Some of my dearest friends I have made right here on Modelwarships"

Hi Guys,
I had to post this overhead view of Benjamin Stoddert, as it gives a great view not often seen.
The original picture, I downloaded from DVIC, and it was 3.1MB. In this picture, you can see the submerged sonar dome...pretty cool!

Worthy of mention is the appearance of the decks. It is clear that the deck grey and non-skid areas can be defined. With side views; not so.
It seems that the amount of non-skid versus deck grey painted decks has changed over the years; the percentage favoring non-skid as the more recent you go.
I painted the decks on my 1/700 DDG-22, (from 1972), mostly deck grey with non-skid walkways throughout; still it was predominantly deck grey. More recently, I built the Buchanan, DDG-14 from a more recent time frame, (1983), and the pics I have of her are predominanly non-skid over deck grey. Either deck paint scheme had its challenges. The DDG-22 in 1/700 scale meant very narrow strips of tape to mask and paint the second deck color, (the non-skid area), and that was a pain.
The DDG-14 which had mostly non-skid, but still dek grey around the edges..everywhere... was also a challenge.
FWIW, Tony

_________________
"You guys make this hobby fun!"
"Some of my dearest friends I have made right here on Modelwarships"

Hi Tony,
very impressive pictures!!!
My favourite photo is the aerial view of Benny Stoddert, really stunning!
Mk 68 was replaced by Mk 86. This update was also done on Mölders, Rommel and Lütjens the "German" Adams.

Cheers
Dirk

Tony,

Updates for you.
Pictures 1, 2,and 3 SPS 39 radar
Pic 4 SPS 52 Antennas are very much a like. IFF bar for the SPS 39 bottom part of the antennas thus hard to see on some angles.
Picture 2 Coming home from WestPAC Cruise. I know, I was on that WestPAC, then I got transfer to the USS Mahan DDG 42 (wish someone would make a model of this class too) and did a Med Cruise. That picture is in my Cruise book!

Hi Guys,
Robbie,
For the benefit of the ignorant, (no negative connotation here), and for my/we/our furthering our, "radar education", please state any specifics further than just: SPS-39 or SPS-52, as I see a huge difference between Pic #1and the rest look the same. IFF antennae will be addressed further too.
The automotive world showed many variations in Make/Model/Year.
Is this basically what we're looking at?
If SPS-39 is the radar type in pics 1, 2 and 3, is there a sub-type denotation? Example SPS-39 version x? Something like that?
Thanks very much, Tony

_________________
"You guys make this hobby fun!"
"Some of my dearest friends I have made right here on Modelwarships"

Hi Guys,
These are the clearest pics I found on DVIC of what the pics were captioned as; SPS-52. I found no pics of SPS-39 at all, (using the name search). I will have to search elswewhere. Side note:DVIC has some very large file size pics, and are great for modeler's. I have to e-mail them to myself to reduce them to post here.
Date Shot: 8 Oct 1983
Photos taken from DVIC "A view of the upper works of the guided missile destroyer USS RICHARD E. BYRD (DDG 23). Visible are (from left to right), an Mark 42 5-inch DP gun mount, twin SPG-51 missile fire control radar antennas, an SPS-52 three-dimensional search radar antenna (on No. 2 smokestack), and SPS-40 and SPS-10 radar antennas (on the foremast)."

Dimensions: 2780 x 1850 pixels - 3,710 KB
Location: NAVAL AIR STATION, NORFOLK, VIRGINIA (VA) UNITED STATES OF AMERICA (USA)




Robbie,
Are these SPS-52 shots? I'm beginning to think that they are not; judging the, "rest", of what I see in these pics. I've not studied this particular ship though. Look at the foremast yard arm arrangement, the aft funnel yard arm and the barely visible, (in pic 1), radar on the Mk68 GFCS. What say you?
If anyone wants to see these pics, (and any I've posted), and has a healthy/fast e-mail delivery system; please let me know, and I'll e-mail the original files size to you.
One purpose of this forum is to share information. I hope I am doing that here. I don't want to share a, "virus", with my fellow modelers.
I especially appreciate Robbie's input here, as I keep hammering away with more questions.
Question #18) Were the SPS-39-52 vertical, "side boards", removable? The earlier pic of DDG-6's SPS-52 from much more recently didn't show these at all.
Adams class Fans, this "you name it", is for you!
Tony

_________________
"You guys make this hobby fun!"
"Some of my dearest friends I have made right here on Modelwarships"

Tony,

Ok the reason I don't put version letters for SPS 39 or SPS 52 or any radar for that matter, is because there are multi-able versions of each radar. One ship could have a SPS 39A the next SPS 39B. Each ship had within the class had the same class or group type radar for each ship class, but each ship had a different version depending on when they were build and had overhauls and what kinds of upgrades each ship got. A SPS 52 radar is basically a SPS 39! The intern stuff is what makes the different. At the time the best 3D Air search radar for the US Navy was the SPS 48, but because of weight problems the Navy could not put the SPS 48 on Adams Class ships. So, they upgraded the electronics and a whole host of other things I do not remember that it in effect created a new radar using an updated antenna. The antennas look the same because they needed to keep within weight constraints. It comes down to what Combat Systems the ship had. Like some DDG2 got NTDS others never ever got the upgraded. 4 of the class and The Benny Mura was on of them (don’t quote me on this, the number could be different) got the SY 2 NTU upgrade. I hope this clears it up a little for you and everyone. Don’t get hung on the antennas to much. Here is an example. As stated in this forum someone pointed out the SPS 10 surface search radar. Good point but on the antenna the same antenna was used for the SPS 67 radar too!

Oh I like the questions. Keep asking!

Tony,

Question #1 Were the SPS-39-52 vertical, "side boards", removable? The earlier pic of DDG-6's SPS-52 from much more recently didn't show these at all.
Adams class Fans, this "you name it", is for you!
SPS 39 had sideboards that extend to the back. SPS 52 did not have the side boards extend to the back. Thats how you tell between the SPS 39 & SPS 52. Go look at an LHD or LHA they have a SPS 52. The side boards were not removable.

Hi Guys,
The few pics I just posted are in fact SPS-39. Right? The sideboards, (or whatever they are really called), do extend away from center in both directions.

Here is TOMS SPS-10 that I will be getting soon.


Here is TOMS SPS-48 that I may or may not attempt to reduce to an SPS-52....er..uh...-39. It is either use his p/e part or do what he earlier suggested, and make it from another media. Tom did give me the exterior dimensions of each radar. Thanks again again Tom.

I was asking Tom from Tom's modelworks if I could modify one of his SPS-48 1/96 p/e radars to become and SPS-52...er uh........SPS-39.
His comment was, "you could try, but I would'nt". They are just plain different.

Here are TOMS IFF antennae....Robbie, can I use any of these?

Party on Dudes!
I work at the hobby shop today..easy day.
Tony

_________________
"You guys make this hobby fun!"
"Some of my dearest friends I have made right here on Modelwarships"

I'm 99.9% sure those shots of DDG-6 are SPS-39. We never upgraded to -52. I was an FC and while I didn't directly work with the -39, the guys in the compartment below us did, and they never mentioned -52 at all.

-Devin

_________________
We like our history sanitized and theme-parked and self-congratulatory, not bloody and angry and unflattering. - Jonathan Yardley

Hi Guys,
Devin,
One of our own SDIPMS'ers, Mr. Rich Durham was the Ops Officer on Barney a while back.
He said that they were fast enough, but sucked fuel making higher speeds. With me, it's all about speed!
I was never a sailor. I have been a drag racer though!
Tony

_________________
"You guys make this hobby fun!"
"Some of my dearest friends I have made right here on Modelwarships"

Tony,

IFF bars look usable to me.

http://www.sinnercomputing.com/SPS_52C.htm

Follow that link. It give what you need to know on the SPS 39/52.

Tony,

According to the crew roster on the Barney website Rick and I would have been onboard for an overlapping period of time. I'm sure if I saw a photo I'd recognize him. I thought the name was familiar, but I see the names of most of the guys who served on Barney throughout her life since I do the associations website.

We did some inspection just prior to decom (not sure which, but it had some acronym for a name) where we rung her up into the high 20's knot-wise. I don't remember if we hit 30 or not. What I do know is I spent part of that run in after steering and the rudder pumps were shaking themselves to pieces under the vibration. The old girl just couldn't keep the speed up. This photo is of the wake during the high speed run.

-Devin

_________________
We like our history sanitized and theme-parked and self-congratulatory, not bloody and angry and unflattering. - Jonathan Yardley

Hi folks,
Hi Barney Sailors! What are you thinking about my Barney? I build her three years ago. I used the WEM kit. Very nice kit with fantastic details. Especially the SPS 52 ......HIHIHI.
http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html
My next Adams class model is DDG 9 Towers. I would like to build her during a sinkex exercise.
http://www.news.navy.mil/view_single.asp?id=2940

Dirk